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de Menezes killing: open verdict

I can understand that the armed police were under a lot of pressure. What I can't understand is the series of failings that led to this happening - the crap photo of the real suspect and the failure to stop the suspect before getting on public transport. Then lies and smears in the press afterwards because they knew they fucked up. Someone should take responsibility and at least resign over this.

That's my position too.

Not according to the transcript - where he always says "advanced" - try standing on a Northern Line tube without moving forward.

What I am having trouble with is why there needed two questions.

Was the train moving at the time? Then it would sometimes be difficult to stand up without taking up a couple of steps. I'm pretty sure the train was at a station, though.

pdxm, is this another name for detective boy? The mantra and styles seem the same.

I think they're seperate people. pdxm's been posting for a while, including when db was here, and I couldn't see db having a sock posting to back him up - he liked fighting hs own battles too much.
 
He's actually probably saying that the British army acted far worse than the Met ever has.
Thing is, even at shit-houses like Castlereagh, where the slimies and the boys from 5 and SB tortured folk, they didn't have a "deaths in custody" record to match the Met.
The reason why? Our discipline was harsher. You fuck up and you get court-martialled. What do coppers have to fear? They're never called to pay for fatalities, so what's the incentive for them to tighten up, have half a fucking clue as to what they're doing? No incentive at all.


Firstly, the deaths in custody record can't even be compared. The Met arrests and detains infinitely more people that are detained in Northern Ireland on a year to year basis . What I was saying is the police and the army in Northern Ireland made mistakes all the time. Including numerous Blue on Blue incidents. And I'm quite sure if you did a little research you will find lots and lots of cases were different sides will claim that no-one paid for those mistakes even when innocents were killed.
 
Firstly, the deaths in custody record can't even be compared. The Met arrests and detains infinitely more people that are detained in Northern Ireland on a year to year basis . What I was saying is the police and the army in Northern Ireland made mistakes all the time. Including numerous Blue on Blue incidents. And I'm quite sure if you did a little research you will find lots and lots of cases were different sides will claim that no-one paid for those mistakes even when innocents were killed.

I can think of far more instances where the British army didn't react, in the face of provocation, than where they did in error, although obviously, I'm going to be biased
Yes, there are worthless cowards like Lee Clegg and halfwits like the cretins that opened fire on civilians on Bloody Sunday, but the ones who don't pay for their errors are an exception, not the rule. Even crybaby Clegg had to do time in a prison before his whining was listened to (as you may have gathered, I have no time for people who dishonour their calling).
 
edited quote: Our discipline was harsher. You fuck up and you get court-martialled. What do coppers have to fear? They're never called to pay for fatalities, so what's the incentive for them to tighten up, have half a fucking clue as to what they're doing? No incentive at all.

this, having worked with the police in the UK, up to Chief Constable level, I have yet to meet one I would consider honest. And I would never want to go into a police station without legal representation.

Returning to this verdict, if they are so convinced they are right, why are they so reluctant to tell the simple truth, as would appear to have been the case here?
 
It would have depended on their honestly held belief at the time.

Given what we know of the 2 gunmens' aversion to the truth, I doubt very much that they even have the capacity for "honestly" held belief.


Coverup and then whitewash.

Justice was not seen to be done and justice was not done.

British justice is obviously as much an oxymoron as American intellegence.


Absolutely disgusting.


ETA: Reckless assumption does not equal honestly held belief.


:mad:


Woof
 
You see this is where it gets murky for me. Were the officers told that this person was a suicide bomber who was about to detonate his bomb? Were they merely told that this person is believed to be the suspect? What were they told exactly?

It seems that among the police communications that morning, there was no mention of his clothing, no mention of any bombs, no mention of any other device, or wires, no mention of any bag or rucksack and no questions asked about any of these things.


Strange that.


:mad:


Woof
 
Here's a narrative..........


The problem for the gunmen is simple.


Under current police procedures, if there is any doubt whatsoever, at all, about a suspect's identity, it is a requirement that a verbal warning "armed police" must given and and that the suspect's response must be noted and taken into account before any firearm is used.

The only exception is in a situation where the officer(s) concerned is/are completely, totally, 100% certain of the suspects identity - not 95%, not 99%, not 99.5% or 99.99% certain, but 100% certain.

Now, as we know from the inquest, the gunmen bundled onto the tube train and spilled this poor guys brains all over the carriage just as he was standing up because they were rushing towards him - without so much as a: "How's yer father", let alone any "warning", let alone "armed police". Seventeen eye/ear witnesses, members of the public, testified at the inquest that no warning was heard and that no officer shouted "armed police". Every single relevant (member of the public,) witness questioned, testified that de Menezes was in no way suspicious, did not in any way move towards the gunmen and presented no apparent threat whatsoever

Now, given the complete and total fuck up that was the surveillance operation and "follow" in this instance - from start to finish, it is unclear just as to how it would be possible for them to know that de Menezes was definately, 100%, "their man". In fact it was impossible!

Cressida Dick apparently "recalls" hearing 5 times during the "follow" that it was "definately" NettleTip, whereas no officer in the field admits to confirming this, not one - in particular, this includes "Pat" who was collating all the intelligence as it came in to the command room and was feeding it up to Dick, he says there was no confirmation, none. Further, within the command centre, every single piece of paper retrieved and analysed, upon which notes had been made from info' in the field, every single one had the notation "U/I" on it, as in "unidentified individual".

Dick never confirmed to the field officers that this was, in fact, the intended subject - and neither did anyone else, no one - all she ever said was to "detain him" and finally, at the last panicky second, to "stop him (meaning "before he entered the underground")" - but by this time he had already entered the station. Throughout the follow, no one mentioned his clothing, no one mentioned bombs or devices or wires, no one mentioned a bag or a rucksack and no one made any queries about these issues - no one.

There was no communication as to whether or not the suspect was armed or rigged with explosives, none.

One armed surveillance officer on the bus with de Menezes (from Brixton to Stockwell tube stations,) told the command centre that he could detain the suspect and asked the command centre, at the very minimum, three times as to whether he should stop the suspect, he very strongly expressed the utmost of urgency and kept querying as to whether he should make the stop, finally telling the command centre that they had less than 20 seconds to give him the go ahead before the suspect entered the tube. Each time he asked, the message he consistenty got back on the phone was: "Wait! Wait! wait!". He finally realised he was getting nowhere and hung up in exasperation - presumably when de Menezes entered the tube.


de Menezes has already entered the tube, he picks up a paper and heads down the escalator, gets on the train and sits down. Enter our trigger-happy gunmen - they jump the barriers and run to the escalators to catch up. By the time they reach the platform, de Menezes is sitting on the train. They run towards him, he stands up and is grabbed by another field officer and pushed back down to the seat, just in time to have his brains splattered - no threat from him and no warning from the gunmen.


Oops!


This explains all the lies by the officers saying they gave/heard one of the gunmen shout the "armed police" warning (and lied that de Menezes then advanced towards them - since this could be interpreted as a threatening response to their "warning"), despite the stupidity of doing so if faced with a suicide bomber immediately ready to deploy within a split second.

The simple fact is that if they did not profer a warning of "armed police" and then wait to see his response and to ensure that by said response they could conclude he was, indeed, "their man", they would have been operating outside of their known operational procedures and, by dint of this......


Oops!


This is why they lied - to try to appear that they followed procedure when in fact they did not. They broke the rules and, in doing so, brutally executed an innocent young man.


Sir Michael Wright is a cowardly cunt with his nose so far up the establishment's arse that it's an embarassment.


The police, the government and the judiciary closed ranks, covered things up and lied, lied, lied, lied, lied - culminating in a whitewash of tragic proportion - and ensured that none of "their own" was held to account.


The gunmen have been returned to the streets - armed.

Dick gets a promotion.

It was all a tragic mistake.


Bollocks! That's not good enough. Lessons have not been learned (other than how to carry out a massive cover up, whitewash and "cover everyone's arse" exercise) and will not be learned until those paid to serve the public properly understand the concepts of "honesty" and "integrity" and are properkly held to account for their actions.

The kind of "establishment truthtwisting" we've seen here leaves everyone in greater danger.


Dick and the gunmen should be fired without pension or compensation and the gunmen (and probably others,) should stand trial in open court and defend themselves in front of a jury for manslaughter.


Only through true accountability can it be ensured that lessons will be learned, improvements made and that the public are served and protected better than they have been in this, dreadful, instance.


So there!


:mad:


Woof
 
I wonder how long it will be before the next time this happens. It is a worry that the police can get away so easily with a crime of this proportion.
 
I wonder how long it will be before the next time this happens. It is a worry that the police can get away so easily with a crime of this proportion.

This whitewash certainly isn't going to help prevent such things happening in the future.
 
This whitewash certainly isn't going to help prevent such things happening in the future.

Exactly.


Without true accountability, lessons cannot and will not be learned.


The prevailing propensity of "the establishment" to close ranks, smear, cover up, lie and whitewash, merely propogates, encourages and positively reinforces a culture of superiority, entitlement, recklessnous, arrogance and impunity.


And hence makes it more likely that it will happen again.


:(


Woof
 
article-0-031EE815000005DC-15_468x286_popup.jpg


The killing of Jean Charles de Menezes as portrayed in the ITV1 documentary, "Stockwell", televised in January 2009.

"One of two officers who shot the innocent man has spoken to a Channel 4 documentary about the case in his first media interview. The officer, known only as C12, recently retired from the Metropolitan Police and said he had only had 10 seconds to look at a grainy picture of the terrorism suspect police were hunting ..."

Metropolitan Police officer who killed Jean Charles de Menezes on tube defends his actions


91865461-14060187-image-a-18_1731097690852.jpg


(Source: Channel 4/Curious Films)

"The jury at the inquest into the death did not accept that C12 had ever shouted “armed police” or that De Menezes, a Brazilian electrician, moved towards the officers. None of 17 civilian witnesses in and around the train carriage heard those words."


Shoot To Kill: Terror On The Tube, Channel 4
 
article-0-031EE815000005DC-15_468x286_popup.jpg


The killing of Jean Charles de Menezes as portrayed in the ITV1 documentary, "Stockwell", televised in January 2009.



Metropolitan Police officer who killed Jean Charles de Menezes on tube defends his actions


91865461-14060187-image-a-18_1731097690852.jpg


(Source: Channel 4/Curious Films)

"The jury at the inquest into the death did not accept that C12 had ever shouted “armed police” or that De Menezes, a Brazilian electrician, moved towards the officers. None of 17 civilian witnesses in and around the train carriage heard those words."


Shoot To Kill: Terror On The Tube, Channel 4
Thanks mate. Will catch up with this one.
 
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