David Starkey On Newsnight....

[LLETSA]

The accent/dialect/patois he is refering to is different to older Jamaicans because it's not Jamaican patois. You are making the same mistake as he has.

I've said it isn't Jamaican patois. It's something contrived.

 

[Streathamite]

Whatever it is, it's still bollocks when people contrive to use it in place of their real accent. Especially when they're white, the little imbeciles.

for a lot of inner city London kids,that patois IS their accent, in that it's been around, one way or another, for it to become the language, by default, of their environment, and the one they pick up on from very young. In their minds, it's their dialect, which is what matters.

 

[LLETSA]

for a lot of inner city London kids,that patois IS their accent, in that it's been around, one way or another, for it to become the language, by default, of their environment, and the one they pick up on from very young. In their minds, it's their dialect, which is what matters.

Even if it is, it's used in a lot of other places than inner-city London. Like I said, contrived.

 

[Streathamite]

Who are you, Paul Gambaccini?

I'm well aware of all the commonplaces you've just tried to put me right about, but, as I said, the fact remains that murder, ill-treatment of women and gays and so on, and a 'gangsta's' lifestyle, has never been as systematically expounded and glorified as it is in gangsta rap.

a lot of ragga is just as misogynistic and murderously homophobic

 

[Streathamite]

Even if it is, it's used in a lot of other places than inner-city London. Like I said, contrived.

I don't deny that, but that STILL doesn't make it contrived, not for teenagers and the younger. It is, for better or worse, the sreet language that they heard from a very early age, and learnt from it naturally, as you do - just as I learnt naturally from the excellent standard of RP English I heard all around me (family and locality) from a very early age.
Which is why that patois, dialect, what-you-will WOULD be contrived as fuck were i ever to adopt it, but not those kids.

 

[LLETSA]

a lot of ragga is just as misogynistic and murderously homophobic

I know. That's shit as well.

 

[Treacle Toes]

LLetsa, I feel compeled to point out to you that like Starkey you are linking gangsta rap to Jamaican Patois....As a music form, Gangsta Rap does not originate in Jamaica.

 

[LLETSA]

I don't deny that, but that STILL doesn't make it contrived, not for teenagers and the younger. It is, for better or worse, the sreet language that they heard from a very early age, and learnt from it naturally, as you do - just as I learnt naturally from the excellent standard of RP English I heard all around me (family and locality) from a very early age.
Which is why that patois, dialect, what-you-will WOULD be contrived as fuck were i ever to adopt it, but not those kids.

For most of them it isn't a 'street language' at all. You get just as many middle class kiddies, whose main view of 'the street' is from behind the windows of mummy's four wheel drive during the school run, using it, which makes it all the more ridiculous.

Even if what you're saying is true of some, it can only be a tiny minority, as most children naturally adopt the accent of their parents and other close relatives, followed by that of the majority in their neighbourhoods. For the vast majority using this artificial dialect, they contrive to use it to fit in with their peer group, and maybe sound like some dickhead whose music they listen to.

 

[Streathamite]

The history of popular music is littered with sexism of the very worst kind, and references to just about every form of violence imaginable. Admittedly you have to know the euphemisms when it comes to folk or blues, but what the hell did you think "jelly roll" is, or what "wearing green" entails? That doesn't justify the violence and misogyny in much "gangsta rap", but it's most certainly nothing unique or even new.

* Living Doll

A lot of blues were deeply sexist and practically pornographic, however, you have to look at the context. most were written by black men, in the deep south, were it wasn't safe to write anything more defiant, or concerned with social or political issues.
Hence, they sang about sex, women, money and blues, as code for everything else.

 

[LLETSA]

LLetsa, I feel compeled to point out to you that like Starkey you are linking gangsta rap to Jamaican Patois....As a music form, Gangsta Rap does not originate in Jamaica.

Can you stop telling me things I already know and answering points I'm not making?

 

[Treacle Toes]

For most of them it isn't a 'street language' at all. You get just as many middle class kiddies, whose main view of 'the street' is from behind the windows of mummy's four wheel drive during the school run, using it, which makes it all the more ridiculous.

Even if what you're saying is true of some, it can only be a tiny minority, as most children naturally adopt the accent of their parents and other close relatives, followed by that of the majority in their neighbourhoods. For the vast majority, they contrive to use it to fit in with their peer group, and maybe sound like some dickhead whose music they listen to.

Where do you live LLetsa? Who do you mix with? What young people do you interact with?

 

[Treacle Toes]

Can you stop telling me things I already know and answering points I'm not making?

I have answered the points you are making and I am also correcting the mistakes you are making by linking gangsta rap with Jamaican patois a la Starkey!

 

[Streathamite]

For most of them it isn't a 'street language' at all. You get just as many middle class kiddies, whose main view of 'the street' is from behind the windows of mummy's four wheel drive during the school run, using it, which makes it all the more ridiculous.

Even if what you're saying is true of some, it can only be a tiny minority, as most children naturally adopt the accent of their parents and other close relatives, followed by that of the majority in their neighbourhoods. For the vast majority, they contrive to use it to fit in with their peer group, and maybe sound like some dickhead whose music they listen to.

well yes, obviously for the m/c kids in the 'nice' neighbourhoods, it very certainly IS contrived - however, the same doesn't go for the kids on the estates. A class issue, unsurprisingly

 

[LLETSA]

I have answered the points you are making and I am also correcting the mistakes you are making by linking gangsta rap with Jamaican patois a la Starkey!

No you're not. Either read what I actually say or fuck off.

 

[Jeff Robinson]

That accent he's referring to is quite different to what's used by older Jamaicans. And, as I said, it's contrived, used in place of people's local dialects.

How do you know this? Local dialects and langauges in general are not static entities, they evolve with time and are influenced by the patchwork shifts in the cultural make up of various communities. White kids that "talk black" are not neceassarily acting in a contrived manner either, it may be the product of hanging out with lots of black friends for example. There's no reason to judge them for it, anymore than there is to judge a black person who speaks with received pronunciation (or "sounds white" as Davie Snarky puts it).

 

[Treacle Toes]

No you're not. Either read what I actually say or fuck off.

I have read what you have posted and I have responded appropriately. On a similar vein, fuck off yourself.

I think people have been pretty patient with you so far, you claim to know stuff but don't post as if you do.

 

[LLETSA]

well yes, obviously for the m/c kids in the 'nice' neighbourhoods, it very certainly IS contrived - however, the same doesn't go for the kids on the estates. A class issue, unsurprisingly

No it isn't a class issue. Not when 'the kids on the estates' (who are not the only working class kids nor even the majority of working class kids-and, what's more, don't form a majority of those who speak with the accent in question) grow up speaking with the same accent as their parents and neighbourhood/region and then adopt this other accent when they fall under different influences.

You're talking as though most 'kids on the etstaes' bring themselves/each other up. Some might, most don't.

 

[Treacle Toes]

How do you know this? Local dialects and langauges in general are not static entities, they evolve with time and are influenced by the patchwork shifts in the cultural make up of various communities. White kids that "talk black" are not neceassarily acting in a contrived manner either, it may be the product of hanging out with lots of black friends for example. There's no reason to judge them for it, anymore than there is to judge a black person who speaks with received pronunciation (or "sounds white" as Davie Snarky puts it).

Perhaps lletsa would suggest a Black person with a cockney accent is 'speaking' White?

 

[Jeff Robinson]

No it isn't. There are white kids- and black kids-who grow up speaking with the same accent as their parents, neighbours and other people of their UK region, and then adopt this ridiculous way of speaking due to fashion and peer pressure etc.

1. Why is it "ridiculous"?
2. So what if peer pressure and fashion influence the way people talk? Did you just copy the way your parents spoke when you were growing up?

 

[LLETSA]

How do you know this? Local dialects and langauges in general are not static entities, they evolve with time and are influenced by the patchwork shifts in the cultural make up of various communities. White kids that "talk black" are not neceassarily acting in a contrived manner either, it may be the product of hanging out with lots of black friends for example. There's no reason to judge them for it, anymore than there is to judge a black person who speaks with received pronunciation (or "sounds white" as Davie Snarky puts it).

I bet you most kids who talk like that don't even have any black friends. Like I said, on the bus in the morning, blacks form about 2% of the kids I encounter for most of the journey. There are a lot more Asians, and guess what? They talk like that as well, and are rightly mocked for it by Asian comedians (and one Jewish comedian.)

I wish you'd all stop trying to be down with the kids. It's unbecoming of middle aged men. And women.

And nobody can escape my judgement.

 

[Treacle Toes]

No it isn't a class issue. Not when 'the kids on the estates' (who are not the only working class kids nor even the majority of worlking class kids-and, what's more, don't form a majority of those who speak with the accent in question) grow up speaking with the same accent as their parents and neighbourhood/region and then adopt this other accent when they fall under different influences.

You're talking as though most 'kids on the etstaes' bring themselves/each other up. Some might, most don't.

OFFS! A patois is a mix...where language influences converge and a dialect evolves. Think about the average inner city estate...imagine the influences accent/language etc that the children bring to eachother from both their ethnic backgrounds and current interests. Those things come together and create a 'mode' of communication, a patois!

 

[Pickman's model]

Those things come together and create a 'mode' of communication, a patios!

don't get me started on patios

 

[LLETSA]

1. Why is it "ridiculous"?
2. So what if peer pressure and fashion influence the way people talk? Did you just copy the way your parents spoke when you were growing up?

It's ridiculous because, like I said, it's contrived. White kids trying to sound black could never be anything other than ridiculous.

And no, I didn't just copy the way my parents spoke (that isn't what I said people simply do anyway). My generation introduced some innovations into the local accent, which were also pretty ridiculous, even to us.

 

[LLETSA]

OFFS! A patois is a mix...where language influences converge and a dialect evolves. Think about the average inner city estate...imagine the influences accent/language etc that the children bring to eachother from both their ethnic backgrounds and current interests. Those things come together and create a 'mode' of communication, a patois!

The point, as I keep having to repeat, is that it's far from being spoken only in inner-city estates.

I wish you'd all stop masturbating to this inner-city beat (man.)

 

[Treacle Toes]

And nobody can escape my judgement.

Cripes! You are very scary.

 

[LLETSA]

Cripes! You are very scary.

No I'm not. Just proudly intolerant, especially of imbeciles.

 

[LLETSA]

Perhaps lletsa would suggest a Black person with a cockney accent is 'speaking' White?

Are you for real?

 

[Treacle Toes]

The point, as I keep having to repeat, is that it's far from being spoken only in inner-city estates.

I know that, a used the scenario of the estate to provide a context for how this language form has evolved.

Magnify that imaginary estate to the Streets of London for example and leave it to brew for 20-30 years....

 

[LLETSA]

I know that, a used the scenario of the estate to provide a context for how this language form has evolved.

Magnify that imaginary estate to the Streets of London for example and leave it to brew for 20-30 years....

I'll leave you to your idiocies. I'm not even fucking bothered one way or the other about this anyway really.

 

[Treacle Toes]

I'm not even fucking bothered one way or the other about this anyway really.

Which is possibly why you are getting it all so wrong. Had you the same experiences/knowledge as others here, you would probably care and understand a little more than you obviously do now.