David Davis resigns as MP over civil liberties

[butchersapron]

Too late? Laws can be changed, so can governments. This looks like a significant step towards the election of a government that will repeal this particular law.

And here we have the trap explained perfectly - in a nutshell 'vote tory'.

 

[butchersapron]

it's not quite too late - the lords will have fun with this one - and even though they can't actually stop the legislation, they can fanny about and delay it

For one year.

 

[marty21]

And here we have the trap explained perfectly - in a nutshell 'vote tory'.

can't imagine the tories repealing it actually - it's easy yelling from the oppostion benches - they might actually quite like that legislation if they get the keys to 10 downing st

 

[untethered]

And here we have the trap explained perfectly - in a nutshell 'vote tory'.

When a Labour government proposes to enact a law that allows people to be locked up for six weeks without trial or charge, you can perhaps understand why that looks like a tempting option to increasing numbers of people.

 

[butchersapron]

can't imagine the tories repealing it actually - it's easy yelling from the oppostion benches - they might actually quite like that legislation if they get the keys to 10 downing st

Nor can i. A quick look at the history of the PTA will show where their true instincts lie.

 

[poster342002]

Too late? Laws can be changed, so can governments. This looks like a significant step towards the election of a government that will repeal this particular law.

Yes, this does feel qualitatively different. For years there seemed to be a consensus that all thse laws were "a good thing" that nobody could seriously oppose. That previously recievd wisdom is now looking shakier by the say. In fact, there seems to be a new consensus emerging that something is very, very wrong with the direction we're heading in.

 

[butchersapron]

When a Labour government proposes to enact a law that allows people to be locked up for six weeks without trial or charge, you can perhaps understand why that looks like a tempting option to increasing numbers of people.

Indeed, voting tory becomes a duty.

 

[butchersapron]

Yes, this does feel qualitatively different. For years there seemed to be a consensus that all thse laws were "a good thing" that nobody could seriously oppose. That previously recievd wisdom is now looking shakier by the say. In fact, there seems to be a new consensus emerging that something is very, very wrong with the direction we're heading in.

Not at all what the polls say.

 

[marty21]

Indeed, voting tory becomes a duty.

natural party of government , what what!!!

 

[Dillinger4]

Indeed. The UK has a constitution and it's written down, just not codified into a single document.

In part, you can find it in The English Constitution by Walter Bagehot. The title's a bit of a giveaway.

Vernan Bogdanor has written some more up to date and relevant stuff on the constitution.

 

[Haller]

Ok ... so it's a stunt ... but it's a hell of a lot better than doing bugger all IMO. Keeps the issue at the forefront where it should be until it's thrown out.

Exactly. The issue that Davies is talking about is that of the infringement of civil liberties on a wide scale. Personally, I think that's serious stuff. For a senior politician to say that it's time to draw a line - that's an interesting development, at the very least.

And it's not simply about attacking Labour. Just as importantly, it's an attempt to commit the Tories to calling a halt to the drift towards authoritarianism.

Davies has previously said that a Tory government would abandon the ID card scheme and would repeal the 42 days. This is his attempt to secure those policies.

I'd be more impressed with those dismissing the entire thing if they were offering a better way of opposing the attacks on civil liberties. Or - in the absence of any action - could even point to someone else who's doing so.

 

[poster342002]

Not at all what the polls say.

Perhaps not - but, strangely, a split within the ruling class seems to be emerging in a way I've never seen in my lifetime. There's clearly unease within the ruling class about all this for some reason. Maybe they just don't like the continued rise of pseudo-bourgeois upstarts?

 

[magneze]

I agree with that, fine no problem. My argument is that this is an opportunistic tactical manouvere on the back of that. It's not going to expose more people to anything other than a very clever tory move. It's not going help debate on the issue. Debate that is actually too late anyway.

Why is the debate too late?

 

[ViolentPanda]

A bid to re-position the Tories, it appears.

Which may (although it's a stretch of the imagination, I'll grant you) provoke a "no confidence" motion against Brown down the line, given how many Labour MPs were disgusted with Brown making the 42 day matter a loyalty issue.

 

[untethered]

Vernan Bogdanor has written some more up to date and relevant stuff on the constitution.

Indeed, as have many people.

The significance of Magna Carta is that it established the principle of limited government. Prior to that, the sovereign was autocratic -- he could do as he pleased. Afterwards, it was accepted in principle that there were certain things the state must never do. We've been arguing about the details ever since, but not the principle.

Incidentally, Professor Bogdanor was David Cameron's tutor at Oxford. I'm sure he's available for consultation where necessary.

 

[Belushi]

Which may (although it's a stretch of the imagination, I'll grant you) provoke a "no confidence" motion against Brown down the line, given how many Labour MPs were disgusted with Brown making the 42 day matter a loyalty issue.

Thats what they're playing for, can Brown survive another kicking at the polls?

 

[marty21]

Why is the debate too late?

the vote passed - apart from the lords delaying it getting consent for a year, it's done and dusted really

 

[magneze]

No it keeps the tories and the anti-brown/anti-labour stuff at the forefront. Whose it going to be thrown out by anyway?

The Lords and, potentially due to acts like this, it won't actually get through the Commons again when it comes back ...

 

[butchersapron]

Perhaps not - but, strangely, a split within the ruling class seems to be emerging in a way I've never seen in my lifetime. There's clearly unease within the ruling class about all this for some reason. Maybe they just don't like the continued rise of pseudo-bourgeois upstarts?

You're off your fucking nut mate . One week you're claiming that the ruling class are so united that we'll soon see a national government and the next you're claiming that they're split like you've never seen them before.

 

[marty21]

Thats what they're playing for, can Brown survive another kicking at the polls?

if labour don't stand - no licking

 

[Melinda]

Vernan Bogdanor has written some more up to date and relevant stuff on the constitution.

Expect Vernon and Peter Hennessy all over Newsnight tonight finally providing some informed analysis.

Im in pain watching journos caught on the hop revealing themselves to be litle more than Westminster branch of Hello Magazine. There is more insightful speculation on this thread than Ive seen so far on any of the TV news broadcasts.

 

[butchersapron]

Exactly. The issue that Davies is talking about is that of the infringement of civil liberties on a wide scale. Personally, I think that's serious stuff. For a senior politician to say that it's time to draw a line - that's an interesting development, at the very least.

And it's not simply about attacking Labour. Just as importantly, it's an attempt to commit the Tories to calling a halt to the drift towards authoritarianism.

Davies has previously said that a Tory government would abandon the ID card scheme and would repeal the 42 days. This is his attempt to secure those policies.

I'd be more impressed with those dismissing the entire thing if they were offering a better way of opposing the attacks on civil liberties. Or - in the absence of any action - could even point to someone else who's doing so.

It's not about opposing attacks on civil liberties you walking into the trap dolt!!!

 

[poster342002]

You're off your fucking nut mate . One week you're claiming that the ruling class are so united that we'll soon see a national government and the next you're claiming that they're split like you've never seen them before.

Things can and do change quickly. I form my opinions on what I can see going on at the moment - and I don't think we can write this off as simplistically as some seem to be.

 

[Haller]

It's not about opposing attacks on civil liberties you walking into the trap dolt!!!

And your proposal is...

 

[butchersapron]

Why is the debate too late?

Because the vote has already taken place. The lords may fuck about for a year, the parliament act will be used and it will then automatially pass. If you think civil liberties are going to be defended by patrician tories rather than 'the people' themselves then you're not going to see them defended at all.

 

[magneze]

the vote passed - apart from the lords delaying it getting consent for a year, it's done and dusted really

If the Lords delay it then it goes back to the Commons for a "think again" vote doesn't it? This increases the possiblity that it could get thrown out completely ...

 

[butchersapron]

And your proposal is...

Weell, a start would be not mistaking a parasitical intervention designed to help the toreis for any sort of useful contribution.

 

[Belushi]

If the Lords delay it then it goes back to the Commons for a "think again" vote doesn't it? This increases the possiblity that it could get thrown out completely ...

IIRC they can send it back to the Commons three times, after that the Parliament Act comes into effect and the Lords have to pass it.

 

[butchersapron]

Things can and do change quickly. I form my opinions on what I can see going on at the moment - and I don't think we can write this off as simplistically as some seem to be.

Things change so quickly that they overturn the whole perspective that you've been arguing for for the last few years in just a few weeks, and not just slightly modify them but lead to the exact opposite conclusion - and over a matter that the ruling class doesn't really give a shit about either way about as it doesn't in the slightest impinge on their central interests?

 

[Haller]

Weell, a start would be not mistaking a parasitical intervention designed to help the toreis for any sort of useful contribution.

Excellent. That's our civil liberties saved, then.