Criminalising Pregnant Mothers who Drink

[littlebabyjesus]

I'll lay my cards on the table.

My position is that abortion should be available on demand, the only criterion determining whether or not it should be done being medical practicalities.

But I am not distressed by the idea of living with some limited compromises to that, such as maximum limits. I object to the 'two doctor' rule, but in practice this isn't really a problem. Abortion should be available to those women who want it (note: want, not need) on the NHS. And it is, more or less, with some delays.

That's what is important to me. I'll live with compromises to those who don't agree with the idea of 'abortion on demand' as long as, in practice, it means that the vast majority of women actually do get exactly that. And unless the situation has changed dramatically in the last few years, I believe that this is largely the case.

As long as that remains the case, I would not push my opinion any further. Sometimes, a little concession is appropriate.

 

[bluescreen]

I agree with a woman's right to have the ultimate say over her own body. I don't like the word 'choice' particularly. Choice is liberalism and can be steeped in self-centredness. Shrugging shoulders and making it flippant leaves a sour taste.

I realise your patience is running short with me. You allow a woman's right to choose but reserve the right to criticise her for being self-centred? That's understandable, but also I hope understandable that other people are impatient with the prevarication.

 

[Citizen66]

Choice is subjective.

 

[Citizen66]

I realise your patience is running short with me. You allow a woman's right to choose but reserve the right to criticise her for being self-centred? That's understandable, but also I hope understandable that other people are impatient with the prevarication.

I said the concept of choice is. Like having an abortion is like deciding what you're going to have for your tea or what you want to watch on the telly. I find the word itself problematic. As you'd have seen if you read my post properly.

 

[littlebabyjesus]

I said the concept of choice is. Like having an abortion is like deciding what you're going to have for your tea or what you want to watch on the telly. I find the word itself problematic. As you'd have seen if you read my post properly.

But you must concede that sometimes it really is that. It's not society making you do it. It's you deciding to do it. And I think we shouldn't make too big a thing out of this. 'You got pregnant, didn't want it, and aborted. Fine, move on. It's ok.' There's no need to judge anything here.

ETa: that might sound callous. It wasn't meant to. But you shouldn't assume that the woman aborting is cut up about it. That's for her to decide.

 

[Citizen66]

But you must concede that sometimes it really is that. It's not society making you do it. It's you deciding to do it. And I think we shouldn't make too big a thing out of this. 'You got pregnant, didn't want it, and aborted. Fine, move on. It's ok.'

And then there's 'You got pregnant, you wanted it, couldn't afford it/had unsupportive partner/didn't want to be with partner' and abortion isn't a choice: it's the only outcome.

 

[littlebabyjesus]

And then there's 'You got pregnant, you wanted it, couldn't afford it/had unsupportive partner/didn't want to be with partner' and abortion isn't a choice: it's the only outcome.

Yes, that happens too. It's still a choice, albeit a coerced one. But yes, that happens. The problems here lie elsewhere, though.

 

[Citizen66]

Which takes us back to the very first post I made that people took umbrage with. Choice isn't equal across the board unfortunately.

 

[littlebabyjesus]

Which takes us back to the very first post I made that people took umbrage with. Choice isn't equal across the board unfortunately.

I'm going to have to furiously agree with you again in a minute.

 

[bluescreen]

Citizen66, am I right in thinking that you believe there is something special about a cluster of cells, and if so, at which point do you think it becomes special? If you don't think it's special, why does the matter of choice - yes, frivolous choice if you will - trouble you so much?

 

[Citizen66]

Citizen66, am I right in thinking that you believe there is something special about a cluster of cells, and if so, at which point do you think it becomes special? If you don't think it's special, why does the matter of choice - yes, frivolous choice if you will - trouble you so much?

Before I answer that, are you going to acknowledge that you are a cluster of cells? I think a wiser position would be to steep the argument on something being a sentient being.

Besides that, I think you're missing the points I'm making by a country mile. It wasn't too long ago that unwed mothers would be forced to abort or be hurried away somewhere or have their children taken off them. If you think that context has completely evaporated then crack on.

 

[bluescreen]

It was two generations ago at least in England that unwed mothers (good grief! what a dated concept) were shamed. Not forced to abort, but sent away to an aunt in the country and encouraged to give up the child for adoption. I don't recall any forced abortions from that period - in fact in that period, abortion was illegal.

Yes, I am a cluster of cells, capable of independent life. What status are you according to a foetus incapable of independent life? If you believe they should be treated as a citizen then come out and say so and we will all know where we stand. If not, what exactly is your problem?

 

[toggle]

Before I answer that, are you going to acknowledge that you are a cluster of cells? I think a wiser position would be to steep the argument on something being a sentient being.

Besides that, I think you're missing the points I'm making by a country mile. It wasn't too long ago that unwed mothers would be forced to abort or be hurried away somewhere or have their children taken off them. If you think that context has completely evaporated then crack on.

again, that's an issue of location and context and class. because although it wasn't too long ago people were very prissy, it wasn't too long before that they were far less so.

 

[Citizen66]

It was two generations ago at least in England that unwed mothers (good grief! what a dated concept) were shamed. Not forced to abort, but sent away to an aunt in the country and encouraged to give up the child for adoption.

What about in Ireland?

Yes, I am a cluster of cells, capable of independent life. What status are you according to a foetus incapable of independent life? If you believe they should be treated as a citizen then come out and say so and we will all know where we stand. If not, what exactly is your problem?

Your inability to understand what I'm saying and instead argue against what you want me to be saying.

 

[Citizen66]

again, that's an issue of location and context and class.

Bingo.

 

[toggle]

What about in Ireland?

post birth abortion by neglect?

 

[littlebabyjesus]

again, that's an issue of location and context and class. because although it wasn't too long ago people were very prissy, it wasn't too long before that they were far less so.

yep. Opinions can change very quickly. I'm very positive in many ways about this. Changes in attitudes towards many things have changed very quickly. We have a way to go, but I think we have cause to be optimistic given changes that have taken place wrt things like women's rights, homophobia and racism. In all three, I think we've come a very long way since the 1970s, for instance. And I reckon we can get a lot further in the next 40 years. Why not?

 

[Citizen66]

An ex of mine had an abortion (not mine) because she didn't see a future with the father. That was her choice. But she was anything but happy about it. She was distraught. It fucked her up. And I was always left feeling that it was more external than internal factors driving her to that decision. She didn't want to be a single mother etc etc. That clouds my view pretty strongly on this.

I'm not arguing about the right to choose which I've repeatedly made clear. But it isn't all light hearted and sweetness and light that some of you appear to be arguing. On that note, I'm done.

 

[kittyP]

I wasn't being judgmental you fucking cock. I was trying to be nuanced on a subject where both sides try to deny that space.

I am sorry. It didn't sound like something you would normally say and I was a little surprised.
But it did come across like LBJ said to me too.
Sorry if that was not how you meant it but it was kinda how it sounded,

ETA: What LBJ has said before this quote. I haven't caught up yet.

 

[Citizen66]

post birth abortion by neglect?

Read the post it was responding to ffs.

 

[toggle]

Bingo.

not really.

because prissyness increaced as prosperity increaced. it was backlash.

and you're still looking at this socley from the perspective of seeing abortion as a result of external factors. 'I don't want to be pregnant' dosen't have to be anyhting other than 'I don't want to be pregnant'. it dosen't have to be a result of economic impacts.

 

[toggle]

Read the post it was responding to ffs.

so spell it out where these forced abortions were happening.

 

[bluescreen]

Your inability to understand what I'm saying and instead argue against what you want me to be saying.

I find discussions on this a bit depressing. Abortion is only really an option due to modern medical practices and largely becomes a demand afaiks due to negative social circumstances placed on women: be it sexual violence, social expectations, financial insecurity. Given that context it simply has to be legal. I completely agree to a woman's right to choice but those arguing against it would do themselves no disservice by attacking the stuff that leads women to the decision of termination rather than trying to shame them out of the predicaments they find themselves in.

I don't have too much difficulty in construing this. I take exception to what you are implying in this:

I completely agree to a woman's right to choice but those arguing against it would do themselves no disservice by attacking the stuff that leads women to the decision of termination rather than trying to shame them out of the predicaments they find themselves in.

because that belittles the woman's right to choose, while cloaking itself in concern. As if people arguing for the woman's right to choose don't also fight for other rights as well. How dare you.

As for Ireland. I don't know about Ireland. Perhaps you do? Perhaps you can enlighten us?

 

[Citizen66]

not really.

because prissyness increaced as prosperity increaced. it was backlash.

and you're still looking at this socley from the perspective of seeing abortion as a result of external factors. 'I don't want to be pregnant' dosen't have to be anyhting other than 'I don't want to be pregnant'. it dosen't have to be a result of economic impacts.

I'm getting bored of this now. Look at the nuances or do one.

 

[Citizen66]

I don't have too much difficulty in construing this. I take exception to what you are implying in this:
because that belittles the woman's right to choose, while cloaking itself in concern.

So you think my concern is disingenuous. I told you to fuck off over an hour ago.

 

[Citizen66]

so spell it out where these forced abortions were happening.

It pertained to me saying single mothers being spirited away out of sight. You're impossible to have a discussion with. You're reactionary.

 

[equationgirl]

I'm getting bored of this now. Look at the nuances or do one.

So you think my concern is disingenuous. I told you to fuck off over an hour ago.

So you really think these posts are appropriate because two posters haven't agreed with your point of view?

Discussions on the topic of abortion are always difficult but you don't have the right to dictate the opinions of others, which is how your posts on the last few pages appear.

You also claim that forced abortions have taken place. Please provide sources or evidence for this statement.

 

[littlebabyjesus]

It pertained to me saying single mothers being spirited away out of sight. You're impossible to have a discussion with. You're reactionary.

Thing is though, is the right (and practical availability - rights count for shit if they're not practically available without money: see the USA) to an abortion a cure for wider societal ills? Of course not. But is it a prerequisite for any imagined version of a better society? Yes, I say that it is.

 

[bluescreen]

Apologies, Citizen66. I've caught up with some of your earlier posts on here and see where you're coming from. Sorry if I had you down as a Catholic priest. Yes, some people even these days have appalling cultural pressures about pregnancy choices. That is wrong. And some people have no problem about terminating a pregnancy.

 

[Citizen66]

So you really think these posts are appropriate because two posters haven't agreed with your point of view?

No, I think it's appropriate because people are misrepresenting my point of view.

Discussions on the topic of abortion are always difficult but you don't have the right to dictate the opinions of others, which is how your posts on the last few pages appear.

I've dictated no such thing. I've said I'll refuse to engage. They can say what they like.

You also claim that forced abortions have taken place. Please provide sources or evidence for this statement.

Are you suggesting, historically, that forced abortions have never taken place?