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[elbows]

So what would indicate the restrictions should be lifted?

At the very minimum such decisions about restrictions will be based on hospitals ability to cope. Longer term we could improve the supply side of that picture by trying to increase healthcare capacity. In the meantime, personally I require us to get through this autumn and winter before I will begin to change my attitude towards this pandemic.

 

[MrCurry]

So you think restrictions should stay forever?

For as long as the virus is a threat to people, yes.

 

[Chilli.s]

At the moment in the UK a person dies of covid every 10 minutes or so. I'll lift restrictions when it gets to a lot less than that

 

[teuchter]

For as long as the virus is a threat to people, yes.

Would you extend this thinking to all other (non covid) threats?

 

[MrCurry]

Would you extend this thinking to all other (non covid) threats?

All other (non covid) threats do have persistent mitigating measures applied. No one is suggesting removing seatbelts from cars because road traffic deaths have fallen to a non excessive level, are they?

When we have the means to limit death, sickness or injuries it makes sense to keep using them, not consign them to history because some selfish people find it inconvenient for their routine to get disrupted.

 

[dtb]

At the moment in the UK a person dies of covid every 10 minutes or so. I'll lift restrictions when it gets to a lot less than that

A person can have multiple illnesses listed on their death certificate. If they return a positive PCR test within 28 days of their death then they're recorded as a Covid death.
Covid death rates are massively over-exaggerated.

 

[Chilli.s]

A person can have multiple illnesses listed on their death certificate. If they return a positive PCR test within 28 days of their death then they're recorded as a Covid death.
Covid death rates are massively over-exaggerated.

You can do what you want, obviously you've done your own research. Just keep the fuck away from me

 

[two sheds]

Half of them are run down by buses I heard.

 

[Aladdin]

Apparently Ireland is heading for trouble again.
Immunologist in the telly today saying rates of infection are too high and that we cannot cope with the numbers needing hospitalisation.
He was advising...as was NPHET (Public Health) that people work from home for Autumn and Winter.
Booster vacc have started for the over 80s and are also now recommended for over 60s. And people who are immunocompromised.

The immunologist quoted what has happened in Israel recently but didnt go into detail...
elbows would you have any info on what's after happening in Israel? They were vaccinating to beat the band last heard.

 

[cupid_stunt]

A person can have multiple illnesses listed on their death certificate. If they return a positive PCR test within 28 days of their death then they're recorded as a Covid death.
Covid death rates are massively over-exaggerated.

You have no clue whatsoever, why don't you fuck off back to the David Icke forums, that's the home for loons, not here.

 

[dtb]

Apparently Ireland is heading for trouble again.
Immunologist in the telly today saying rates of infection are too high and that we cannot cope with the numbers needing hospitalisation.
He was advising...as was NPHET (Public Health) that people work from home for Autumn and Winter.
Booster vacc have started for the over 80s and are also now recommended for over 60s. And people who are immunocompromised.

The immunologist quoted what has happened in Israel recently but didnt go into detail...
elbows would you have any info on what's after happening in Israel? They were vaccinating to beat the band last heard.

Israel is experiencing a fourth wave. It's one of the most vaccinated countries in the world.

The Elephants In The Room - PANDA

As countries focus the discussion on mandatory vaccination, PANDA is increasingly aware of the elephants in the room, the topics no one is talking about.

www.pandata.org

Israel and waning immunity

Israel was one of the first countries to vaccinate a significant portion of its population. Over 78% of the population eligible for vaccination have had two shots and more than 10% of the Israeli population has now received a third vaccine shot. And yet, Israel is seeing a surge in cases and deaths. At the time of this article, Israel has the highest number of per capita COVID-19 cases in the world.

Unlike COVID vaccines, flu vaccine performance has always been judged over a full season. Pfizer’s claim of 95% effectiveness of their vaccine was measured only two months after administration. The trial designs also exhibit numerous manipulations, including the problem that they were selected from healthy young people who are at negligible risk from Covid.

Waning vaccine immunity is a known problem for influenza vaccines and certain studies have shown near zero effectiveness after only three months. In early July, Israel reported that COVID vaccine efficacy against infection and symptomatic disease, “fell to 64%.” By late July it had fallen to 39%. Vaccines are not eligible for approval by the FDA if efficacy is less than 50%.

The story is similar in the US. Recently, the CDC issued a report confirming a decline in vaccine effectiveness observable in their data too. Pfizer initially promised vaccine efficacy for up to six months and the CDC is now recommending a booster shot starting 8 months after the second dose of an mRNA vaccine (either Pfizer-BioNTech or Moderna).

Waning immunity and the real life experience of Israel is the fourth elephant in the room. Citizens in most countries are taking the vaccine on the basis that they will be subjected to two shots at most. In fact, countries that mandate COVID-19 vaccines will be committing their populations to vaccination every 6 months. Certain of the risks attached to the vaccines are faced each time they are administered.

 

[teuchter]

All other (non covid) threats do have persistent mitigating measures applied. No one is suggesting removing seatbelts from cars because road traffic deaths have fallen to a non excessive level, are they?

Non excessive? Not sure about that. Why not just ban all non essential use of cars?

 

[Supine]

Israel is experiencing a fourth wave. It's one of the most vaccinated countries in the world.

The Elephants In The Room - PANDA

As countries focus the discussion on mandatory vaccination, PANDA is increasingly aware of the elephants in the room, the topics no one is talking about.

www.pandata.org

Israel and waning immunity

Israel was one of the first countries to vaccinate a significant portion of its population. Over 78% of the population eligible for vaccination have had two shots and more than 10% of the Israeli population has now received a third vaccine shot. And yet, Israel is seeing a surge in cases and deaths. At the time of this article, Israel has the highest number of per capita COVID-19 cases in the world.

Unlike COVID vaccines, flu vaccine performance has always been judged over a full season. Pfizer’s claim of 95% effectiveness of their vaccine was measured only two months after administration. The trial designs also exhibit numerous manipulations, including the problem that they were selected from healthy young people who are at negligible risk from Covid.

Waning vaccine immunity is a known problem for influenza vaccines and certain studies have shown near zero effectiveness after only three months. In early July, Israel reported that COVID vaccine efficacy against infection and symptomatic disease, “fell to 64%.” By late July it had fallen to 39%. Vaccines are not eligible for approval by the FDA if efficacy is less than 50%.

The story is similar in the US. Recently, the CDC issued a report confirming a decline in vaccine effectiveness observable in their data too. Pfizer initially promised vaccine efficacy for up to six months and the CDC is now recommending a booster shot starting 8 months after the second dose of an mRNA vaccine (either Pfizer-BioNTech or Moderna).

Waning immunity and the real life experience of Israel is the fourth elephant in the room. Citizens in most countries are taking the vaccine on the basis that they will be subjected to two shots at most. In fact, countries that mandate COVID-19 vaccines will be committing their populations to vaccination every 6 months. Certain of the risks attached to the vaccines are faced each time they are administered.

Load of bollocks. Improve your sources if you want real knowledge.

 

[2hats]

Israel is experiencing a fourth wave.

A basic rule of constructing an argument: check dates on, and thus validity of, your sources*.


Do try and keep up at the back.


* Another basic rule: don't use comedy sources.

 

[cupid_stunt]

Israel is experiencing a fourth wave. It's one of the most vaccinated countries in the world.

The Elephants In The Room - PANDA

As countries focus the discussion on mandatory vaccination, PANDA is increasingly aware of the elephants in the room, the topics no one is talking about.

www.pandata.org

Oh dear, someone can't count.



And, your comedy source is also out of date, just look how the cases have been dropping, since the Delta peak over a month ago.

0/10 - must try harder.

 

[MrCurry]

Non excessive? Not sure about that. Why not just ban all non essential use of cars?

I’m not arguing that road deaths have fallen to a non excessive level. I have that as an example of an argument no one would reasonably make.

 

[elbows]

elbows would you have any info on what's after happening in Israel? They were vaccinating to beat the band last heard.

Others have already posted handy graphs about that but I'll add this article too:

Rather than imposing new lockdown measures, the government bet on a third booster dose of the Pfizer Inc (PFE.N)/BioNTech vaccine for people age 12 and up, mandated face coverings and enforced use of a “Green Pass” - proof of vaccination, recovery from the illness or a negative test for the virus - at restaurants and other venues, even for children.

Since peaking in early September, daily infections in Israel have fallen more than 80%, with severe cases nearly halved.

Analysis: With boosters, masks and Green Pass, Israel sees a COVID-19 wave in retreat

Four months into one of its worst COVID-19 outbreaks, Israel is seeing a sharp drop in new infections and severe illness, aided by its use of vaccine boosters, vaccine passports and mask mandates, scientists and health officials said.

www.reuters.com

 

[dtb]

Oh dear, someone can't count.

View attachment 292988

And, your comedy source is also out of date, just look how the cases have been dropping, since the Delta peak over a month ago.

0/10 - must try harder.

Health Ministry chief: Israel’s 4th COVID wave appears to be coming to an end​

Health Ministry chief: Israel’s 4th COVID wave appears to be coming to an end

Serious cases fall to 607, lowest rate in a month; 78,000 get booster on Thursday, highest figure in weeks; hundreds of police to ensure QR codes scanned in new Green Pass system

www.timesofisrael.com

Israeli scientist’s stark warning to the UK over Covid fourth wave​

Israel’s worrying fourth wave

Signs immunity is waning from early vaccinations have led to a booster programme

www.ft.com

‘Vaccination blunts, but does not defeat’: exploring Israel’s fourth Covid wave​

‘Vaccination blunts, but does not defeat’: exploring Israel’s fourth Covid wave

Two months ago, face masks were consigned to bins. Now the country is in a ‘unique moment of epidemiological doubt’

www.theweek.co.uk

etc...

Didn't have to try very hard to find the above info.

 

[dtb]

Load of bollocks. Improve your sources if you want real knowledge.

What's wrong with the source?

 

[Supine]

What's wrong with the source?

Well, for a start Pandata build their ideas on ‘The Great Barrington Declaration’. Most of their website is fake intellectual word salad tbh.

 

[teuchter]

I’m not arguing that road deaths have fallen to a non excessive level. I have that as an example of an argument no one would reasonably make.

Seatbelts aren't analogous with covid restrictions though. There are pretty much no downsides to wearing a seatbelt. A much more effective way to reduce road deaths would be to implement a 10mph speed limit everywhere but people would never accept that because of the restrictions it would put on what they could do.

I think we lifted restrictions too quickly in the UK. I'd still have masks compulsory in many situations for example. However, I also think there's a level of risk at which we choose to just accept it, because it has to be balanced against all of the downsides of Covid related restrictions. People will disagree about where to draw the line of course, but it is completely impractical to say that we should keep restrictions until Covid presents no threat at all.

 

[elbows]

I think we lifted restrictions too quickly in the UK. I'd still have masks compulsory in many situations for example. However, I also think there's a level of risk at which we choose to just accept it, because it has to be balanced against all of the downsides of Covid related restrictions. People will disagree about where to draw the line of course, but it is completely impractical to say that we should keep restrictions until Covid presents no threat at all.

I tend to go on about that by splitting it into two different things.

There are my attitudes towards public health, trying to minimise individuals quality of life years lost, how I would ideally like people to think about such things, how well we fund such efforts, trying to avoid huge numbers of long covid cases, etc etc. Ideals, things to strive for, opinions that encourage such goals, vs opinions that I think undermine such goals and enable the sorry status quo, reflecting badly on power, inequality and priorities.

And then there are the risks which the authorities themselves cannot live with and have to act upon. Which in the case of this pandemic mostly boils down to pressures on hospitals and the rest of the health care system. "People learning to live with Covid" is dressed up in many ways by government and media, but strip away the guff and we are mostly left with a story where actually the authorities calling the shots in many respects, and the bottom line for them is all about the hospitalisations. When they want more economic activity to resume they will try to lead people in one direction, and when things are far too grim on the hospital front our marching orders will be in the other direction. There is much variance in terms of how on board individuals are with that at any particular moment, but so far via factors such as peoples understanding of the gravity of situations, peoples good sense and reason, and stuff like the mood music in the press, the momentum at each moment has tended to end up pointing strongly in the required direction.

At this stage of the pandemic, in an era of vaccination, things were bound to be more finely balanced and messy by now. In future I dont think there will suddenly come a time where I will abandon my wider attitudes towards public health etc. And my attitude towards personal risk will only shift slowly. But the bulk of my posts involve commentary about what I think will actually happen, and in this pandemic thats has always had government action and hospitalisation figures at its heart, along with peoples willingness to bend in that same direction. People will draw their own threat lines all over the place, but the one the authorities draw in terms of threat to hospitals is the one I pay the most attention to because I think it's its the strongest guide we've got as to future restrictions. And so I remain stuck in the same holding pattern until we all find out whether we'll actually get through this autumn and winter without breaching the levels of hospitalisation the authorities think the system can learn to live with. And should the virus place an ongoing very heavy burden on health systems for many years to come, then learning to live with this virus long term means investing heavily in meaningful increases in health system capacity.

 

[Aladdin]

Three ICU beds left in all of Ireland

And it's been a cattle mart in the hospitals since September yet only NOW the government is meeting NPHET on Monday.
For three months everyone was told "THE VACCINES WILL PROTECT YOU but keep on wearing masks and washing hands and socially distancing"
People didnt heed the small print. It's bollox here now.
I heard a caller into a popular radio programme telling how people made fun of a woman who was wearing a mask in a restaurant.
Makes me sick that does.

We're nowhere near the end of this pandemic and people need to seriously cop the fuck on.

Also ... the truth about schools needs to come out over here. The CO2 monitors are a joke. Many were broken or inferior quality and schools did not get one per class. Three monitors for 30 classrooms is a joke. The figures in schools are being massaged too. Its as if they want everyone to think covid doesnt really transmit in schools. Well teachers on the ground know that it does.
Schools over here dont have ANY testing going on. If a kid goes home sick its up to parents to decide about getting tested.
There are no ongoing tests in schools.

Why NPHET did not see this coming is beyond me.
A dog with a mallet up its arse would have known...they surely watched how things were panning out elsewhere?

Its really made for a dininished sense of trust in NPHET. Nobody trusts the government but at least we were all believing Dr Tony Holohan when he would come on the news every day. But that all stopped in the Summer. There were no more NPHET broadcasts. Schools opened. And we were all lied to....

 

[cupid_stunt]

Health Ministry chief: Israel’s 4th COVID wave appears to be coming to an end​

Health Ministry chief: Israel’s 4th COVID wave appears to be coming to an end

Serious cases fall to 607, lowest rate in a month; 78,000 get booster on Thursday, highest figure in weeks; hundreds of police to ensure QR codes scanned in new Green Pass system

www.timesofisrael.com

Israeli scientist’s stark warning to the UK over Covid fourth wave​

Israel’s worrying fourth wave

Signs immunity is waning from early vaccinations have led to a booster programme

www.ft.com

‘Vaccination blunts, but does not defeat’: exploring Israel’s fourth Covid wave​

‘Vaccination blunts, but does not defeat’: exploring Israel’s fourth Covid wave

Two months ago, face masks were consigned to bins. Now the country is in a ‘unique moment of epidemiological doubt’

www.theweek.co.uk

etc...

Didn't have to try very hard to find the above info.

Oh fair enough, I did wonder if their first wave number of cases was hidden by lack of testing right at the start, as here, but checked the deaths which were actually very low back in March/April last year, so didn't it seem like a wave to me, but if the Israelis are counting that as their first wave, I'll give you that.

However, none of this equates to what's happening in the UK and your suggestion on another thread that the vaccines are pointless*, our current level of new cases are averaging around 40,000 day, with 120 deaths per day, when we had that number of cases back at the end of Jan., we were seeing around 10 times the number of deaths. Therefore, the vaccines are working well, and with boaster jabs, hopefully the death rate will be kept under control over the coming months.

*

If cases are such a concern and are rising so rapidly, what was the point of vaccinating everyone?

To which I replied, 'Because, it prevents most people from ending-up in hospital & dying, you shit for brains freak.'

 

[dtb]

Well, for a start Pandata build their ideas on ‘The Great Barrington Declaration’. Most of their website is fake intellectual word salad tbh.

What's your issue with The Great Barrington Declaration? It's supported by tens of thousands of medical health scientists and practitioners.

Show me something that is fake on the Pandata website.

 

[Supine]

What's your issue with The Great Barrington Declaration? It's supported by tens of thousands of medical health scientists and practitioners.

Show me something that is fake on the Pandata website.

Nice trolling. Got nothing better to do?

 

[cupid_stunt]

What's your issue with The Great Barrington Declaration? It's supported by tens of thousands of medical health scientists and practitioners.

Eat your heart out....

Claim: The Great Barrington Declaration gives a good alternative to lockdown | Notion

www.covidfaq.co

And, it was actually signed by 'tens of thousands of medical health scientists and practitioners, and concerned citizens', it was basically an open online petition, open to anyone in the world to sign, the vast majority were not claiming to be medical health scientists and practitioners, and there's no way of knowing if those that claimed to be medical health scientists and practitioners are real or not.

You can bet your bottom dollar that most of those so-called 'medical practitioners', included all sorts of weirdos, from yoga teachers to crystal healers, etc., etc.

Even if they are legit, they represent a tiny, tiny fraction of the many millions of medical practitioners across the globe, who were professional enough not to sign any old bullshit, you shit for brains freak.

​

 

[LDC]

Stick the fucking idiot on ignore, he's got nothing to post worth engaging with.

 

[cupid_stunt]

Nice trolling. Got nothing better to do?

I am not sure they is trolling, they are showing the classic signs of having fallen down the conspiraloons' rabbit hole.

 

[Badgers]

I am not sure they is trolling, they are showing the classic signs of having fallen down the conspiraloons' rabbit hole.