Corbyn & Cabinet in the Media

[Dogsauce]

Yes I read the links. It appears you don't. On a whole host of measures, there is no call for more left wing measures than Miliband. I know you're desperate for there to be, but there's not.

Apart from stuff like renationalising the railways, retaining the NHS etc.

 

[littlebabyjesus]

Yes I read the links. It appears you don't. On a whole host of measures, there is no call for more left wing measures than Miliband. I know you're desperate for there to be, but there's not.

Now you're just making yourself look silly.

The options given all assume a position to the right of Labour. The only option that doesn't do that is 'Other'. There is no call for more left-wing measures because the polling company decided there wouldn't be.

 

[MarkyMarrk]

And the sample size for those polls?
You never mention those sorts of details. Quite likely because you know that the samples are small, and in Yougov's case, those that are polled are self-confessedly interested in party politics.
So, no confounding factors at work.

They must back Corbyn and the left then.

 

[belboid]

This is why we can't afford to stay silent:
Labour leadership election: Ed Miliband's era of magical fabulism is
Some ignore these lessons.

Yes I read the links. It appears you don't. On a whole host of measures, there is no call for more left wing measures than Miliband. I know you're desperate for there to be, but there's not.

Align that with the current polls.... Oh, they're to be dismissed as well.

why are you being a habitual liar?

You may have read some of these polls, but you haven;t understood them. You claim they state almost exactly the opposite of what they actually do.

So, why should anyone take a word you say seriously?

 

[magneze]

MarkyMarrk do you have anything much to say other than 'Corbyn is bad'? What, in your opinion, would be the right move for the Labour party in order to get in in 2020? Please don't just say 'ditch Corbyn' as I think we all get that that is your opinion. Is there anything more substantive?

 

[MarkyMarrk]

Now you're just making yourself look silly.

The options given all assume a position to the right of Labour. The only option that doesn't do that is 'Other'. There is no call for more left-wing measures because the polling company decided there wouldn't be.

Oh, you're on about one poll of the ones posted. And almost no-one chose other.
Cutting the deficit is top priority. Option to disagree.
But no-one did.

And your evidence that non-voters are more likely to vote because Corbyn is in, and hence more likely to vote Labour is...?

I put it to you 4/5ths of the votes required need to come from the Tories. You'll deny it, because it's proof that Corbyn can't win. But in reality you know he can't. You're just playing games.

 

[DotCommunist]

he wants burnham. Bright eyes, burning like fire

 

[MarkyMarrk]

MarkyMarrk do you have anything much to say other than 'Corbyn is bad'? What, in your opinion, would be the right move for the Labour party in order to get in in 2020? Please don't just say 'ditch Corbyn' as I think we all get that that is your opinion. Is there anything more substantive?

More substantive than ditch Corbyn? Is this a joke?

I posted earlier in the thread a proposal I agreed with. Posters said they doubted it was a real opinion and then said 'it's Blairite so can be discounted'. Blairism is a different generation to me, but apparently it can be used to justify ignoring arguments.

 

[littlebabyjesus]

Oh, you're on about one poll of the ones posted. And almost no-one chose other.
Cutting the deficit is top priority. Option to disagree.
.

No, no option to disagree. Only the option to opt-in and agree or not to choose it at all.

You really, really need to re-read it. And I'm 'on about' the poll you linked to in the post I quoted. I'd say 'keep up', but you appear unable even to keep up with yourself.

 

[magneze]

More substantive than ditch Corbyn? Is this a joke?

I posted earlier in the thread a proposal I agreed with. Posters said they doubted it was a real opinion and then said 'it's Blairite so can be discounted'. Blairism is a different generation to me, but apparently it can be used to justify ignoring arguments.

Where earlier in the thread? (It's long)

 

[ViolentPanda]

Yes, very few of them, but some. The ones who think that Miliband's halfway house was crap that it would amount to a half-hearted version of the same policy, but can be convinced by an genuine alternative.

Their numbers will be tiny, dwarfed by the 63% of the adult population who voted neither Labour nor tory. Trying to win them is more important., imo. And that is eminently possible. We cranked some figures on another thread, I think it was a quarter of greens, and 15% of the registered non-voters, and there would be a Labour government (albeit propped up by the SNP)

Yep. Made this point a couple of days ago, but it doesn't seem to occur to the "moderates" and their supporters that such a strategy is worthwhile. They're still stuck in the Blair years of targeting swing constituencies, little realising that the voter demographic is shifting.

 

[existentialist]

More substantive than ditch Corbyn? Is this a joke?

Put it this way, fule. Sorting out the Labour leadership is not like the underpants gnomes:

1. Ditch Corbyn
2. ?
3. Electoral VICTORY!!!!1!

It would make sense for you to have some idea in which you saw your brave new Corbyn-free Labour party might head thereafter.

It's not hard; anyone would think you can't give a straight answer to a straight question.

 

[ViolentPanda]

You're starting to sound like a sixth former who's just discovered politics.

More like a PPE, politics or economics grad. Most of them are clueless as to real-world politics and economics too.

 

[MarkyMarrk]

No, no option to disagree. Only the option to opt-in and agree or not to choose it at all.

You really, really need to re-read it. And I'm 'on about' the poll you linked to in the post I quoted. I'd say 'keep up', but you appear unable even to keep up with yourself.

You're on about a different poll. There is an option to disagree but you haven't read it.

 

[belboid]

More like a PPE, politics or economics grad. Most of them are clueless as to real-world politics and economics too.

but they can generally quote polls and analyses accurately, which seems to be beyond wee marky

 

[MarkyMarrk]

Where earlier in the thread? (It's long)

We need a culture change. I suggest looking at:

• As a party, learn to debate reasonably, so we have disagreements not fights. Both left and right of the party seem convinced that organising is the way to shape the party, never persuasion.
• Recreate routes for working class people to get into politics. And by “working class” I mean manual workers and unskilled labourers who haven’t even gone to university.
• Give up on identity politics. We are not the arbiters of who is or is not sexist or racist. Positive discrimination makes us look utterly unconcerned with fair treatment of individuals.
• Don’t let any issue be a taboo. Immigration is the obvious issue, but we are becoming equally unable to articulate sensible thoughts on benefit spending too.
• Stop arguing over the record of the last Labour government. And in particular, don’t make future policy on the basis of continuing, or correcting, the policy of the last Labour government.
• Stop attacking the media whenever we are unable to get good coverage.

 

[ViolentPanda]

The Labour Party is constantly saying it's the electorate that needs to change. See this thread for an example.

Yes, I partly blame the £3 "members" and the Trots, Communists and greens who entered our party for their own purposes, not really caring whether we get a Labour Government. I also blame moderate Labour Party members. We messed up. I blame us for shutting up in the name of unity when the outcome of Miliband's leadership was incredibly clear and predictable and we'd been predicting it in semi-private for at least two years, and it's our fault for saying almost nothing during the election when he did stupid things like the Stone or Russell Brand.

Trots and coomunists? You mean the couple of hundred entryists that got in recently, and the sleepers from back in the '80s and '90s? Yep, they're REALLY in a position to do damage to the party.

 

[littlebabyjesus]

You're on about a different poll. There is an option to disagree but you haven't read it.

This poll. You know, one you linked to, the one the author goes on to analyse without understanding at all what it was asking.

It's a pretty egregious example of directing your respondents' replies with leading questions.

 

[ViolentPanda]

but they can generally quote polls and analyses accurately, which seems to be beyond wee marky

Well, he's sort of quoting them accurately. He's doing that thing that that most of us were warned against way back in secondary school - selectively citing stuff that fits his thesis, while ignoring anything "inconvenient". Old-school misrepresentation. Very tacky.

 

[ViolentPanda]

I think the 9million voters who voted for Labour MPs should be considered ahead of those who paid £3.

All of those 9 million voters had the choice to join the party and/or have their say. Around 8.8 million appear to have not exercised that choice,THAT is democracy.

 

[ViolentPanda]

he wants burnham. Bright eyes, burning like fire

The man is a Thunderbird puppet, just less animated than Scott, Virgil et al.

 

[Pickman's model]

Trots and coomunists? You mean the couple of hundred entryists that got in recently, and the sleepers from back in the '80s and '90s? Yep, they're REALLY in a position to do damage to the party.

but look at where the party is and the damage these few wreckers can do is clear

 

[ViolentPanda]

No, no option to disagree. Only the option to opt-in and agree or not to choose it at all.

You really, really need to re-read it. And I'm 'on about' the poll you linked to in the post I quoted. I'd say 'keep up', but you appear unable even to keep up with yourself.

As someone who's designed quite a few polls and surveys for community use over the decades, I'm well-aware how easy it is to "load" polls so that the choice of answers will inevitably lead to data that favours the formulator or commissioner's position. It's quite simple - simple enough that local government does it all the time.

 

[nino_savatte]

Why do you make up words and attribute them to me?

I've made up nothing but you're getting increasingly desperate. Mr. Strawman. You made it pretty clear what you mean by the word "viable alternative", thus there is a massive gulf between what I see as viable and your version of it.

 

[belboid]

We need a culture change. I suggest looking at:

• As a party, learn to debate reasonably, so we have disagreements not fights. Both left and right of the party seem convinced that organising is the way to shape the party, never persuasion.

The right certainly have a lot to learn on that front, they're the main ones refusing to debate, as they are so used to having their way.

Recreate routes for working class people to get into politics. And by “working class” I mean manual workers and unskilled labourers who haven’t even gone to university.

oh, the irony. Who was it who pushed the w-c out of the party? Blair. once again, you're better off backing Corbyn to achieve this goal

Give up on identity politics. We are not the arbiters of who is or is not sexist or racist. Positive discrimination makes us look utterly unconcerned with fair treatment of individuals.

Labour is in hock to identity politics? Not that I've noticed. PD worked rather will in getting more women into parliament, and I'm not sure of anywhere else the party supports its implementation.

Don’t let any issue be a taboo. Immigration is the obvious issue, but we are becoming equally unable to articulate sensible thoughts on benefit spending too.

I agree, tho, again, it was the Blairites who were most keen on not letting those conversations happen.

Stop arguing over the record of the last Labour government. And in particular, don’t make future policy on the basis of continuing, or correcting, the policy of the last Labour government.

Depends whether the tories et al let Labour do that. The party is still blamed for the last recession, sticking your head in the ground wont help. By the next election, that will matter less (especially if there is another recession in the meanwhile), but that isn't down to Corbyn.

Stop attacking the media whenever we are unable to get good coverage.

Pointing out media bias does no harm, lots of people will sympathise, as long as it is done well.

 

[ViolentPanda]

but look at where the party is and the damage these few wreckers can do is clear

You have a point. A few wrecked coffee mornings will sink the Labour Party.

 

[nino_savatte]

This is why we can't afford to stay silent:
Labour leadership election: Ed Miliband's era of magical fabulism is
Some ignore these lessons.

Yes I read the links. It appears you don't. On a whole host of measures, there is no call for more left wing measures than Miliband. I know you're desperate for there to be, but there's not.

Align that with the current polls.... Oh, they're to be dismissed as well.

This is just a load of drool.

 

[nino_savatte]

Ed Miliband wasn't judged to be as strong a leader as David Cameron

That assumes that Cameron is "strong"; he isn't and even his backbenchers know it.

 

[agricola]

We need a culture change. I suggest looking at:

• As a party, learn to debate reasonably, so we have disagreements not fights. Both left and right of the party seem convinced that organising is the way to shape the party, never persuasion.
• Recreate routes for working class people to get into politics. And by “working class” I mean manual workers and unskilled labourers who haven’t even gone to university.
• Give up on identity politics. We are not the arbiters of who is or is not sexist or racist. Positive discrimination makes us look utterly unconcerned with fair treatment of individuals.
• Don’t let any issue be a taboo. Immigration is the obvious issue, but we are becoming equally unable to articulate sensible thoughts on benefit spending too.
• Stop arguing over the record of the last Labour government. And in particular, don’t make future policy on the basis of continuing, or correcting, the policy of the last Labour government.
• Stop attacking the media whenever we are unable to get good coverage.

I suppose the problem with what you have just bullet-pointed is that the only people who have been (for example) treating issues as taboo and beyond debate (whether its the membership of the EU or NATO, or Trident, or the dire record of the last Labour Government or even the current Government's foreign policy) are the anti-Corbyn maquis. They were also the people who went around suggesting that he was basically sexist because "he didn't give any of the top jobs to women", even though at least two of the four identified posts weren't in his position to give and all of the top level of Labour women MPs refused to serve under him. Finally they are also the same people who have been in the media on a daily basis slating him.

 

[agricola]

That assumes that Cameron is "strong"; he isn't and even his backbenchers know it.

Indeed - which is of course why he is accompanied by so much noise at PMQs nowadays, as he tries to suggest that allowing people to get fifty grand in debt to get a job that pays on average £22 grand a year is in fact good for them.