Commie Bastards have one more success in Nepal!

[Macabre]

You suggested the best thing Nepal could do is let India invade!

You're politics have everything to do with your crackpot ideas of what Nepal should and should do.

I was passing on opinions from Nepali people I had met, letting India invade and joining India are too different things. How many times to I have to repeat that beofre it sinks it that it was something many Nepalis wanted or are you just going to keep telling them they dont have a right to decide how their country progresses.

Just because the source is 2 years old does not mean it is invalid

People do not change that quickly, if at all in 2 years.

The situation in Nepal is very different now that it was 2 years ago. Both sides have become more violent and the king has sacked the goevernment for a start.

I do not have an internet connection at home so I'm unable to spend the time reading a journal online, I do have more important things to do than spend my time bickering with a snotty nosed imperialist on t'internet.

Print it off then dip shit. For someone with better things to do, which I doubt, you seem to find the time to troll threads are read your own sources. I read yours, the're out of date and dont support you point, you cant even extend me the same courtesy.

You loonspuds clearly stated that the maoists have no grassroot support.

That was clearly utter tripe I have proved that with solid evidence by peer reviewed respected and well known academics.

If you have paid attention to the boards you would see that I am a libertarian socialist, and I support the working class struggle against the king, this doesn't mean I have to embrace 100%, the politcal niche of the banner that they fight under, does it?

Please show me the post where I even mentioned the word grassroots? My argument has always been that the Maoists are turning out to be as bad as the king. Your source just states they started out as a grass roots organisation, it irrelevant to the point that they have become oppressive. I dont care about your personal politics, its nothing to do with Nepal and just because an organisation use left wing politics doesnt mean they have the best interests of the people at heart.


As I predicted, you've dodge the important questions, tried to distance yourself from the Maoist, not bothered to read sources and resorted to personal insults again. So again, what are your opinions on the the Maoist council being run by high caste nepalis? What about their use of the Dalits as cannon fodder, the gang rapes of women, the closing of schools, the abductions, the child soliders, the increased poverty and perpetuation of the caste system within the Maoist ranks?

 

[fishfingerer]

I was passing on opinions from Nepali people I had met, letting India invade and joining India are too different things.

Since you feel your two week holiday entitled you to declare yourself to be the clued up one on this situation, here's a couple of questions. Please have a go at answering them before flouncing again.

How would being part of India benefit Nepal's dalits?

Do you think such a move, whether achieved through Indian invasion or through a referendum, could occur without intensifying violence and suffering which you say you abhor?

Why the fuck would the king agree to a referendum in the first place?

Would India destroy the caste system in Nepal?

If not, why are you apparently content to see the perpetuation of the caste system and the associated misery and discrimination?

I have more but they'll do for starters.

 

[Jessiedog]

I do not have an internet connection at home so I'm unable to spend the time reading a journal online, I do have more important things to do than spend my time bickering with a snotty nosed imperialist on t'internet.

But.....but.....but.....

This is the whole point DUAF.

Your source was read and responded to.

It does not support your assertations as Macabre has pointed out in detail.

A more recent study has been presented that supports the view presented here by Macabre, myself and manyn others (who are closer to the Nepali community than yourself).

You seem to be flailing a ween bit.

As macabre wrote:

That Jan Sakar source you posted DUAF is interesting but its only a chapter in a much bigger book, plus it was published in 2003 and a lot has happened in the past few years.

From those pages, I dont see what it has to do with this topic. It seems to be an account of how and why the Maoist started, no one on this thread has said Nepal wasnt in need of change but that the Maoists are turning out to be as bad as the King (as my link above shows).

It also says that many joined the Maoists just for revenge against the police or out of fear for not joining and judging from the chapter titles for other parts of the book I dont think its going to paint a rosie picture of Nepals future.

(My emphasis.)

And perhaps youd care to respond to my earlier post? It would help if you just read pages 40 - 45 of the report on Macabre's link:

The three main leaders of the Maoist-CPN (including the military leader are all high caste, two of them Brahmins and apparently, in 2001, only two members of the 37 member Maoist Central Committee are from the Dalit caste they purport to represent.

The Dalits merely serve as cannon fodder for the elites to use in the front lines..

Schools are shut, students kidnapped and children recruited into the "movement". This is a useful tactic when fewer and fewer adults are prepared to join

Abuse based on caste is not uncommon among the Maoists.

The civil war is having a devestating effect on Dalits who are, of course, suffering most. Their situation has been deteriorating more and more rapidly.

The Maoists are hurting most, those very same people they assert they represent.

Not untypical in these kind of situations tho, is i?.

Still, it's not the Maoist leadership who are suffering as they perpetrate this unwinnable war which is tearing the country apart, killing thousands and WORSENING the situation of the poorest and most vunerable, is it? So who gives a shit?


It's an interesting piece of research, well balanced and very well referenced.

It is utterly scathing about the government and security forces.

May I particularly refer peeps to pages 40 through 45 for an analysis of the Maoists impact upon Nepal's Dalit community.

Your argument so far amounts to: "I support the Maoists because I support workers strugglling against the king."

Well, fair enough but, as has been demonstrated, the leadership of the Maoists are an elite group. They no longer garner widespread support among the ordinary people, or even Dalits, due to their brutality towards the populace and their contribution towards an already awful and fast deteriorating social and economic environment.

I would venture to suggest you may wish to reconsider your support for this group.

They are not helping "the workers".



Woof

 

[Jessiedog]

Since you feel your two week holiday entitled you to declare yourself to be the clued up one on this situation, here's a couple of questions.

I'm sure that Macabre will answer your points, but in the meantime, before we go rushing off at a tangent, why not just address the evidence as presented?

Read pages 40 - 45 of the report on the link Macabre posted.

And comment, or come up with any other sources that refute said evidence.

Otherwise its all just silly really.

The Maoists do not hold widespread support and, what support remains is waning.

They do not represent the people.

I look forward to you addressing the evidence provided so far.



Woof

 

[DrRingDing]

Your source was read and responded to.

It does not support your assertations as Macabre has pointed out in detail.

What utter tripe. The cited work clearly states the maoists have widespread support. Macabre was bullshitting about them not backing up my claims.

 

[Jessiedog]

What utter tripe. The cited work clearly states the maoists have widespread support. Macabre was bullshitting about them not backing up my claims.

Well why not post that bit up here then.

You completely ignored my previous request.

Then get onto dealing with the refutations presented.

Otherwise it's a bit silly really.



Woof

 

[Macabre]

Since you feel your two week holiday entitled you to declare yourself to be the clued up one on this situation, here's a couple of questions. Please have a go at answering them before flouncing again.

How would being part of India benefit Nepal's dalits?

Do you think such a move, whether achieved through Indian invasion or through a referendum, could occur without intensifying violence and suffering which you say you abhor?

Why the fuck would the king agree to a referendum in the first place?

Would India destroy the caste system in Nepal?

If not, why are you apparently content to see the perpetuation of the caste system and the associated misery and discrimination?

I have more but they'll do for starters.

It was 5 weeks not 2 and 6 months in India where many Nepalis live.

The dalits would stil be at a disadvantage under India but not as bad as under the king or Maoists. India has done a lot to try and open up the caste system, the PM himself is an untouchable, but are finding that although laws have changed old habits die hard. Nepal has no natural resources and as such is increadibley poor, becoming part of India would give in economic support and, due to its boarder china, would recieve a lot of investment as Sikkim did. But again your just side stepping the point that this solution was one that presented to me by many Nepalis, you and DUAF obviously know more about the situation than they do.

Have you read my source? Or are you just going to ignore the questions about how the Maoist behave like DUAF?

 

[Macabre]

What utter tripe. The cited work clearly states the maoists have widespread support. Macabre was bullshitting about them not backing up my claims.

Where did anyone say that people dont support the Maoists? They are a big movement. The point is that they are hypocrites in saying they are liberating the Dalits and want rid of the caste system when they maintain it and use the Dalits as cannon fodder. That chapter is just an interesting account of how the Maoists started up, nowhere does it address the actions of the Maosit today in Nepal.

You still refuse to address my questions. What are your opinions on the the Maoist council being run by high caste nepalis? What about their use of the Dalits as cannon fodder, the gang rapes of women, the closing of schools, the abductions, the child soliders, the increased poverty and perpetuation of the caste system within the Maoist ranks?

 

[Jessiedog]

I've fully read the report you tried to post now DUAF.

It pertains to a single village from the period of 1998 - 2001 and suggests that for a while, (but only during 2000/2001,) there was increasing support for the Maoists at the village.

It is tho', full of caveats about people supporting the Maoists out of fear and disagreeing with some policies (such as closing schools).

It also documents the takeover of schools, indoctrination of pupils, threats, violence and killings of teachers, students and others, and the recruitment of children into the armed struggle.

The authors also aknowledge that they may well have been duped by the Maosists to some extent and played into the Maoist agenda, stating that their: "...activities may well have played into the rhetorical strategies of Maoist practical ideologies".

Subsequent events suggest that the village is no longer under Maoist control (263 of them surrenderd to security forces in September 2001, including a senior cadre,) and the authors clearly state that things have changed since Sept 2001 and that the report is, essentially, no longer valid.

They suggest that it should be taken as an historical snapshot of what was happening in one particular village during the late 1990's through to 2001.

Or did you miss those bits?



Time has indeed moved on and the paper Macabre links to (which, as I've previously mentioned, was scathing about the govt. and security forces,) presents a far more detailed, wide ranging and in-depth study of the situation in Nepal and the current status.

It documents the abuse, violence and atrocities perpetrated by the Maoists upon the very people they proclaim to represent - and the fact that these are worsening.

It details the desperate and deteriorating situation of Dalits across the country and even within the Maoist movement - both among the "elite leadership" (due to the dalits' gross underepresentation) and the "rank and file".

The conclusion is that the Maoists are losing what support they had from the people rather than gaining it.

They do not command widespread support.

And there is NO evidence to suggest that the Maoists (with an elite leadership group if ever there was one,) would - in any way - be a better govt. for the ordinary Nepali people than the current detestable regime.

That is the current state of play.



Woof

 

[Jessiedog]

are you just going to ignore the questions about how the Maoist behave like DUAF?

C'mon Macabre.

Not even I have accused the Maoists of that!!



Woof

 

[Macabre]

Well they is equally blinded by ideology and thinks they know what best for people

 

[Jessiedog]

Well they is equally blinded by ideology and thinks they know what best for people

All the more reason to engage (here I mean, not militarily).

We were all freedom fighters once ya know?

Flexibility of ideolgy is essential under local conditions, as no good Maoist would disavow.

Including the flexibility to rationally, openly, criticise those supposedly on "our own team" when they step over the mark.

If a referendum was conducted in Nepal today, assuming it was relatively free, I'd be surprised if some form(s) of individual/multilateral intervention(s) were not streets ahead.

Do you think the Blue Berets would/should/could go in Macabre?

Or should we just watch the situation?

Leave well alone?

Most (Nepali) people I speak to have long given up hope and lost interest in the rights and wrongs of the machinations of both the Maoists and the current govt.

Edited to add:

And yet, they also despair that without the necessary civic infrastructure (which neither the Maoists nor the govt seem desperate to promote,) trying to reinstate democracy will merely promote the resurrection and furtherance of the corruption that flourished during the previous insipid attempt.

And that civic infrastructure is sorely lacking.

What to do?



Woof

 

[Jessiedog]

But you could be right.

Nepal may well choose India in a referendum.

A more "local" solution perhaps - which may be preferable.

I guess most people are now at the point of:

"Whatever! As long as the fighting stops, and things improve for those worst off first. And then, perhaps, trickle up.

But first, the fighting stops. Before then, people simply can't get on with life.

Stop it now."


That's usually what most people say during civil war.

And this one is only going to get worse.



What's your solution Macabre?

Or at least your thoughts on what a properly worded/administered referendum may reveal.

A mate of mine whom I recently asked about a solution just grinned and said something like: "After what we've done for the UK over the last hundred and fifty years, the UK should now repay us by giving full British citizenship to every Nepali. This would solve the problem and it's the honourable thing to do. Not that everyone or even anyone wants to go to the UK, but both sides would have to prepare for mass defection and this would end the conflict."

Sounds like a plan to me.



Woof

 

[Jessiedog]

I am a libertarian socialist

And it's funny.

'Cos for many, many (many,) years now I've mainly considered and defined myself as adhering broadly to a libertarian soclialist humanist philosophy. I'm surprised, therefore, that we find ourselves so far apart on this particular issue.

Especially when the body of evidence (anecdotal, reported, academic, statistical, you name it,) all seems to generally lean heavily towards a more balanced view than blind support of the "Maoists".

Did I mention the "refugee" community I share a city with?



Woof

 

[Macabre]

Not too sure what I'd want to happen, there isnt any decent situation to the probelms. I just went with what the Nepalis I talked to said about going with India because there were sick of the constant fighting and India took Sikkim into the fold quite well. This would take a significant amount of power from the king which he wont give willingly so it would have to come through the parliment if they ever got their act togethter. It would also completely obliterate the Maoists as India would never tolerate them in the country, although i dont like the Maoists I would like to see them get shat on by the Indian army.

Not sure about the UN going in, I dont see how they could be effective in the mountains against a large group of armed people who know the land very well. Also I dont see how they could be impartial either, most likely they would side with the king and just give him a slap on the wrists and ask him to be nicer.

I cant see it ending well for anyone but the king, the country is going to get worse and worse until the king is forced to get outside aid, from India or China most likely, and the country will get poorer from paying back that debt.



*waits to see if the chuckle brothers will dodge the questions about the Maoists and just attack my observational opinion*

 

[Jessiedog]

Christ Macabre!

That's a pesimistic prognosis.

Unfortunately, I'm inclined to agree.

I don't really see subsumation into India as realistic.

And can't see much good happening in the short term.

It really is depressing.



One question, however, rermains. If there is no immediate solution and the disasterous status quo prevails, what will happen over the next few years and what will the eventual outcome be?

As long as the king remains, conflict seems inevitable.

Does Nepal slip so far towards "failed state" status that foreign intervention becomes inevitable?

Or must we simply watch the country waste away?

It's very sad.



Woof

 

[Ryazan]

I can't believe this thread is still going. Has revol68 been destroyed by Red Jezza's undetectable argument-winning Sonic Wave Gun yet?

 

[Macabre]

Nah Ryazan, me and Jessie have picked DUAFs arguments and sources apart at the seems, and he refuses to comment on my source. Read the source I put up of post #283.

JD, I think for now the country is just going to rot Im afraid, so far every country in the region has said its an internal afair for the king to sort out. Its possible that if it becomes a failed state the disbanded government could call for foreign intervention to dispose of the king. This would probably result in another power struggle between the parties and the maoists, if they are still around. I dont see anything good happening in Nepal for a long time

 

[DrRingDing]

http://www.nyuhr.org/docs/Missing Piece of the Puzzle.pdf
Probably gives the best overall account of the situation to this year. I found some more that I will post after people read this one as its the best out of them.

Shame one you.

I've printed out and read the first 43 pages of that piece of neo-liberal propaganda from an elitist amercian law school at the job center.

The report is lazy, it over simplifies the caste system and of maoist organisation. It over eggs the size of the population of the Dalits and worse still it completely ignores the the massive work that has been completed by the maoist, men and women, to overcome sex and caste discrimination and abuse.

When I have more time I will go through that sloppy piece of propaganda piece by piece as the few decent and respectable sources on the maoists are from the collection of papers I have already pointed to.

2.5 years to write that piece of shit! what a joke I could knock that up in a week and make a far better job of it.

Shame on you.

 

[DrRingDing]

Nah Ryazan, me and Jessie have picked DUAFs arguments and sources apart at the seems, and he refuses to comment on my source. Read the source I put up of post #283.

LOL!

Jessiedog hasn't even read the sources!

That's 'seams' btw.

Just out of interest where did you locate the first one?

 

[DrRingDing]

I don't want to fight.

i want to learn.

Then try this for starters...

http://www.amazon.co.uk/exec/obidos...8-1/ref=sr_8_xs_ap_i1_xgl/202-2048910-9167800

and maybe a bit of this for some independent facts and figures....

http://www.amazon.co.uk/exec/obidos...27030/sr=1-2/ref=sr_1_2_2/202-2048910-9167800

 

[Jessiedog]

When I have more time I will go through that sloppy piece of propaganda piece by piece as the few decent and respectable sources on the maoists are from the collection of papers I have already pointed to.

*taps paw*

Good. Good.

That's all we've been asking for.

Make sure you do address it "piece by piece" and back up your refutation with sources.

The work you deride clearly supercedes the paper you posted, the inherent flaws of which were pointed out by the authors themselves.

If you would care to respond to my earlier posts, I've requested that you provide a link to the paper I cannot find.

Thanks.



Woof

 

[Jessiedog]

Then try this for starters...

http://www.amazon.co.uk/exec/obidos...8-1/ref=sr_8_xs_ap_i1_xgl/202-2048910-9167800

and maybe a bit of this for some independent facts and figures....

http://www.amazon.co.uk/exec/obidos...27030/sr=1-2/ref=sr_1_2_2/202-2048910-9167800

Are you spamming now?



I'd prefer to stick to the facts rather than have youn try and flog me books.



Woof

 

[Macabre]

Shame one you.

I've printed out and read the first 43 pages of that piece of neo-liberal propaganda from an elitist amercian law school at the job center.

The report is lazy, it over simplifies the caste system and of maoist organisation. It over eggs the size of the population of the Dalits and worse still it completely ignores the the massive work that has been completed by the maoist, men and women, to overcome sex and caste discrimination and abuse.

When I have more time I will go through that sloppy piece of propaganda piece by piece as the few decent and respectable sources on the maoists are from the collection of papers I have already pointed to.

2.5 years to write that piece of shit! what a joke I could knock that up in a week and make a far better job of it.

Shame on you.

Why dont you do a better job, instead of spamming us with the book that contain the chapters you've already sourced above which dont back up you position. I dont see how it simplifies the situation, its giving an account of how the fighting is having an affect on the Dalits. Its not judging the ideologies or goals of either side, just documenting the effects.

On what basis do you say its exaggerated the population statistics? We've already pointed out the sources you've posted are either dubious or irrelevant. Also your lazy attempts to discard the source by calling it neo-liberal propaganda from an elitist amercian law school is a pathetic attempt to side step the information within. We've have read everyone of your sources and made fair comments and all you can do its skim ours and try and ignore it because it is contrary to your opinion. Please give your source detailing the massive work that has been completed by the maoist, men and women, to overcome sex and caste discrimination and abuse. I’ve provided a even handed, independent source that show how they claim to fighting for equality but in practise are just perpetuating the caste and gender problems, you have yet to provide anything to back up you claims.

And all you can do is pick on spelling mistakes and typos, shame one you.

 

[Macabre]

DUAF, do you not find it odd that every single person on this thread who has some form of contact with Nepal is highly critical of the Maoists or are we all royalist, thatcherite, neo-liberals . We have someone whos married to a nepali, someone who is friends with many displaced Nepalis and a couple of people who have been there recently, backed up with a source from the NYUHR (bother to look into them? notice the anti-TWAT work they do, but hey their yanks and all they publish is propganda. Unless its by Mark Turin as you seem to think hes backing the Maoists).

http://www.watchlist.org/reports/nepal.report.20050120.pdf On Children caught in the middle

http://hrw.org/english/docs/2005/10/12/nepal11862.htm Gies a decent account of the politics and at the end talks about the probelms Nepal will face for the future. The HRW site gives a lot of information, this is a letter they sent to the Maoists leader about the abuse their soldiers are causing.

 

[Jessiedog]

Very good stuff Macabre, I'm still ploughing my way through it all.


The thing that enrages me most.....



....is that, once again, we have a civil war situation that has degenerated to the degree that both sides prefer to abuse, rob, torture, rape and kill civilians - including and perhaps especially, children. It is, after all, a far easier way to fight a war than actually engaging "the enemy".

It would seem that the "intelligence gathering" will continue on both sides until there are no "informants" left. I guess then, the (elite) remains of both antagonists will sit down and divvy up the spoils (what little remains of anythoing,) over a good meal in a nice hotel somewhere in Kathmandu.

'Tis the way of things.





The Maoists have lost any and all credibility.

The monarchy never had any.

And, as usual, the people - especially the poorest - are being wholly fucked over by both sets of elitist cunts and their out-of-control "troops".

And it's the Maoists, degenerating into an army of desparate thugs as they have, that are now truly letting the people down.

Let's face it, nobody expected anything from the monarchy - they're utterly beyond redemption But getting fucked by (the leaders, supposedly, of) your own team? Those that you trusted? Those who promised to represent you? To make things better?

Nah!


Been there.


Fuck that!


I'm going to bed.



Woof

 

[DrRingDing]

Are you spamming now?



I'd prefer to stick to the facts rather than have youn try and flog me books.



Woof

Don't be a spoon Jessabell.

That first link is the book that is a collection of papers that I have referenced it is written by respected peer reviewed academics and authors.

The second is an overview of recent Nepali history which you and you self appointed 'expert' on Nepal 'Macabre'* should read.

*I've been on an expensive two week package tour to a country so thus I am an expert on it, dontcha know!

 

[DrRingDing]

DUAF, do you not find it odd that every single person on this thread who has some form of contact with Nepal is highly critical of the Maoists or are we all royalist, thatcherite, neo-liberals .

You fucking arrogant cunt. Only the a middle class and person could believe that if they go on a expensive package tour to a country they become expert on the place!!

Fuck me, I have spent several months in the Himalayas surrounded by and interacting with Nepalis but do you hear me using that limited exposure to claim that gives me the right to call myself an expert?

No, because only a ponce would do that.

So by your specifications I am a greater judge of the Nepal situation as I have spent longer in the mountains than you

 

[DrRingDing]

In addition to that before I moved out of blighty I worked for a refugee charity, with guess what, with a nepali!

So that makes me, by your own arroagant and ultimately ignorant judgements a verifiable guru on all things Nepalese!

 

[Ryazan]

Only a middle class person who sits behind a computer naivley cheerleading a maoist insurgency (with suspect knowledge of maoism) in safety could be such a dick.