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Charlie Hebdo massacre and the West's response

I think all religions are becoming more militant not just islam and much of the really reactionary and restrictive stuff ie abortion controls in the USA are brought about by people who hate islam.

None of that means that the stuff Namazie etc talk about arent problems but i dont think the rise of political islam is the only reason for the decline of secularism in the west, although its certainly emboldened other forces that hate secularism

Ive not read the CH editorial but weren't some of their print runs funded by the french state a while back. Is that still going on?

There's a right-wing/conservative (little c) push back across all of society, religion, politics and culture (whatever that means), in response to lots of different things. It's the PC gorn mad/you can't even say x any more/tighten up abortion rules/ban gay marriage/legislate against trans people/Britain First/UKIP/le Pen/etc impotence (sometimes legitimately fueled by racism and sexism) at society becoming more permissive and inclusive, but with lots of (understandable) insecurities at the hands of neoliberalism, and a whole heap of other things mixed in to boot (and you can add all sorts of people/phenomena in there: Cliven Bundy/Palin/Trump/whatever). It means you've got nasty right wingers aligning on some issues along side otherwise lefty people, and others in the middle, but it gets broken down into separate issues without understanding some of the links. And of course, as always it's us against them (regardless of who the us and the them is).
 
I think Samir Amin provides a unique and convincing perspective on these issues:
I will content myself with expressing my viewpoint in principle: the progressive response cannot be based on the institutionalization of communitarianism,* which is essentially and necessarily always associated with inequality, and ultimately originates in a racist culture. A specific ideological product of the reactionary political culture of the United States, communitarianism (already triumphant in Great Britain) is beginning to pollute political life on the European continent. Islamophobia, systematically promoted by important sections of the political elite and the media, is part of a strategy for managing community diversity for capital’s benefit, because this supposed respect for diversity is, in fact, only the means to deepen divisions within the popular classes.

The question of the so-called problem neighborhoods (banlieues) is specific and confusing it with the question of imperialism (i.e., the imperialist management of the relations between the dominant imperialist centers and the dominated peripheries), as is sometimes done, will contribute nothing to making progress on each of these completely distinct terrains. This confusion is part of the reactionary toolbox and reinforces Islamphobia, which, in turn, makes it possible to legitimize both the offensive against the popular classes in the imperialist centers and the offensive against the peoples of the peripheries concerned. This confusion and Islamophobia, in turn, provide a valuable service to reactionary political Islam, giving credibility to its anti-Western discourse. I say, then, that the two reactionary ideological campaigns promoted, respectively, by the racist right in the West and by political Islam mutually support each other, just as they support communitarian practices.

and he cites examples of how the West has contributed to the rise of political Islam (but, importantly, not in the way some on the left try to suggest that political Islam arose only or primarily as a reaction to/rejection of Western imperialism)...

The history of the Muslim Brotherhood is well known. It was literally created in the 1920s by the British and the monarchy to block the path of the democratic and secular Wafd. Their mass return from their Saudi refuge after Nasser’s death, organized by the CIA and Sadat, is also well known. We are all acquainted with the history of the Taliban, formed by the CIA in Pakistan to fight the “communists” who had opened the schools to everyone, boys and girls. It is even well known that the Israelis supported Hamas at the beginning in order to weaken the secular and democratic currents of the Palestinian resistance.

Political Islam would have had much more difficulty in moving out from the borders of Saudi Arabia and Pakistan without the continual, powerful, and resolute support of the United States. Saudi Arabian society had not even begun its move out of tradition when petroleum was discovered under its soil. The alliance between imperialism and the traditional ruling class, sealed immediately, was concluded between the two partners and gave a new lease on life to Wahabi political Islam. On their side, the British succeeded in breaking Indian unity by persuading the Muslim leaders to create their own state, trapped in political Islam at its very birth. It should be noted that the theory by which this curiosity was legitimated—attributed to Mawdudi—had been completely drawn up beforehand by the English Orientalists in His Majesty’s service.*

It is, thus, easy to understand the initiative taken by the United States to break the united front of Asian and African states set up at Bandung (1955) by creating an “Islamic Conference,” immediately promoted (from 1957) by Saudi Arabia and Pakistan. Political Islam penetrated into the region by this means.

The least of the conclusions that should be drawn from the observations made here is that political Islam is not the spontaneous result of the assertion of authentic religious convictions by the peoples concerned. Political Islam was constructed by the systematic action of imperialism, supported, of course, by obscurantist reactionary forces and subservient comprador classes. That this state of affairs is also the responsibility of left forces that neither saw nor knew how to deal with the challenge remains indisputable.
Political Islam in the Service of Imperialism
 
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The discussions are not being had constantly, because the top-down multicultural project polarises the debate into racists and non-racists. As has happened here. And so discussion becomes about whether what’s been said is racist.

Leave CH aside for now. Decent people like Maryam Namazi – a socialist feminist ex-Muslim – are being lumped along with the far right. She is called racist, she is called Islamophobic, she is vilified, and her points are discounted. People who probably haven’t even heard her speak start from the assumption that she is pro-racist.

Read her Twitter time line. She makes perfectly easy to understand statements which liberal leftists take completely the wrong way, because of the preconceptions they start with, because of the three decades of conditioning that these questions aren’t allowed. The only people who question multiculturalism, the mindset goes, are the far right, so therefore anyone who questions it is far right. I’ve had it myself, and it’s like wading through treacle trying to get people to see what ought to be a straightforward point. What would have been a widely held view on the left had moral relativism not warped the terms of reference.

And that’s what’s happening with this CH piece: it isn’t satire. It’s straight forward commentary. But it is being taken the wrong way by people determined to see racism. Yes, there are a couple of points I disagree with. I’ve discussed them. But just because I disagree with someone doesn’t make them a racist. I agree with the main theme of what is being said by this piece. And just because there are minor things I don’t agree with doesn’t mean I think they shouldn’t be said.

The continual attempts to misinterpret, mislabel, wilfully misunderstand, and generally smear Charlie Hebdo lead me to one conclusion: the people on the so-called left doing the smearing don’t want the murders to have been caused by anything other than what they’ve decided they were caused by. They want Charlie Hebdo to have brought those murders on themselves. They want those murders to be part of a blow against imperialism. Because to see them as anything else means they have to rethink the explanations they have for everything. So Charlie Hebdo are racists.

Except they aren’t.

I was just looking for my copy of Kenan Malik’s Fatwa to Jihad, because there was a passage I wanted to quote. It appears I’ve lent it to someone. It was something like this, though:


“Multiculturalism has helped foster a more tribal nation and, within Muslim communities, has undermined progressive trends while strengthening the hand of conservative religious leaders. While it did not create militant Islam, it helped create for it a space within British Muslim communities that had not existed before.”​


And that’s what this CH piece is talking about, though from a French perspective. This is not about “an entire group of people being evil” as you have read it, it’s about a culture that has had the unintended consequence of boosting the wrong attitudes and the wrong people. Because we don’t want to upset that decent, courageous, dignified woman in the veil by discussing our misgivings about the patriarchy and misogyny, we don’t. We say “She is an admirable woman. She is courageous and dignified, devoted to her family and her children. Why bother her? She harms no one”, and decide that it’s none of our business. We don’t want to give her offence. We don’t really want to give anyone offence. We certainly don’t want to be mistaken for a far right racist. So we keep our misgivings to ourselves. But by doing that we strengthen the hand of conservative religious leaders. And we contribute to the debate being polarised. We are all to blame. That’s how we ended up here.

Christ what nonsense. `The debate` is had over and over again.

France has huge structural problems, eight years after the financial crisis it has 11pc unemployment, and a load of poverty. Far worse than the UK. Great rafts of its people are completely alienated from (non-existnant) French values.

The debate that is not being had, is how France responded to the financial crisis, it didn't and its centre right and left parties have no answers.

More than that maybe the EU (and France) should stop being such close friends of Jihadi HQ. Utter bullshit. Just part of the spiral France is in.
 
There is a debate being had, over and over - one that for the most part has little effective input from the left, as any thoughtful or nuanced response from that quarter is drowned out by the other debate 'this is/you are racist' vs 'no it isn't/I'm not'
 
Well when you get into these things, racists have a field day don't they.

What is `the debate` we are supposed to have then? Whether religion is a made up load of shit or not?
 
Yeah her stuff looks good, i like her protest about the scarf. The Hebdo thing is bollocks though, typical French establishment smokescreen. France can't face up to its problems, they are too big. Lovely countryside, good energy companies, good farming, but that is it. It turned its back on the world and sulked for forty years, now it cant cope...it has serious problems.

These are the debates France should have. Whether some people are fascist Catholics or fascist Muslims, well, not really relevant. French values don't exist, French life has been changed, they could have gone with it like the UK or Spain or Portugal or Germany but they stuck their noses in the air and walked off. The establishment of which CH is apart simply can't accept that...

Edit, religion is a load of made up shit by the way.

Edit 2, and yes multiculturalism is bullshit, a product of `the end of class` and all that rubbish. The right want ethnic identity, the left should want class identity, its why liberals love multiculturalism, they always side with fascism.
 
None of that means that the stuff Namazie etc talk about arent problems but i dont think the rise of political islam is the only reason for the decline of secularism in the west, although its certainly emboldened other forces that hate secularism

Obviously Namazie being silenced at Goldsmiths is completely unacceptable, but not because of some bullshit freedom of speech platitude but merely because her analysis can be seen to be limited. It's like, insufficient analysis is insufficient, there's no need to censor it if it's mistaken. Contemporary Reality and history will disprove it.

The question then becomes why these university and liberal multicultural affairs are afforded more attention than they deserve. And Namazie has found something to market here. If her, Ahadi and the WPI stuck to bog standard class struggle action rather than being a middle-class lefty pressure group they'd fade into obscurity. Namazie makes some valid points but she's trying to appeal to a demographic that is either insipiently right wing or will be in 10 years time when the wisdom of their trust funds hit home.
 
Obviously Namazie being silenced at Goldsmiths is completely unacceptable, but not because of some bullshit freedom of speech platitude but merely because her analysis can be seen to be limited. It's like, insufficient analysis is insufficient, there's no need to censor it if it's mistaken. Contemporary Reality and history will disprove it.
e.

No, it's because those seeking to silence her are nasty misogynist bullies who should be opposed vigorously.
 
No, it's because those seeking to silence her are nasty misogynist bullies who should be opposed vigorously.

I definiely agree that most of the people who are trying to silence her are misogynist bullies and should be vigorously opposed.

But you're completely evading what I'm trying to say. Do we oppose her being silenced on moral or political grounds? If you oppose her being silenced on moral grounds, you play into the hands of the cultural relativists. This is what I'm trying to say and this seems to go over your head. If we oppose her being silenced on political grounds, however, we don't fall pray to tokenism. But conversely if we oppose her being silenced on political grounds we become more critical of Namazie's approach and we are able to pinpoint where she is going wrong. Principled support involves ruthless criticism.

I think, however, we have different conceptions of politics. Your conception of politics is based on ethics. So we're going to be at odds with each other, but you've proven my point that most contemporary politics (even in its ostensibly pluralistic and tolerant varieties) is an outgrowth of religion.
 
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Surprised no mention of this.

How did we end up here?
Once upon a time there was a little girl who lived with her mummy and daddy in a little house on Ridgeway street in Belfast, which is a city in the north of Ireland.

One day, some loyalist persons decided they would secure the union for ever by throwing stones at this girl (who was my grandmother by the way), because she was a "taig" and a "fenian" (despite the fact that her daddy (my great-grandfather) was a serving officer in the Royal Irish Constabulary, as it then was).

That's what this piece of shit CH editorial reminded me of. These self-styled free thinkers are not channelling the spirit of Bertrand Russell, they are speaking in tones Ian fucking Paisley would have approved of - approved of because, like the bold reverend, it smears an entire community as an "enemy within", who are not to be tolerated.

And no, that doesn't mean I think CH's people deserve to be massacred, and if you think it does, please let me tell you to fuck off in advance.
 
@Idris the story where you make your grandmother out to be a victim or martyr illustrates perfectly the methods Islamists use to take root in communities. I'm sure she has many other stories.
 
Once upon a time there was a little girl who lived with her mummy and daddy in a little house on Ridgeway street in Belfast, which is a city in the north of Ireland.

One day, some loyalist persons decided they would secure the union for ever by throwing stones at this girl (who was my grandmother by the way), because she was a "taig" and a "fenian" (despite the fact that her daddy (my great-grandfather) was a serving officer in the Royal Irish Constabulary, as it then was).

That's what this piece of shit CH editorial reminded me of. These self-styled free thinkers are not channelling the spirit of Bertrand Russell, they are speaking in tones Ian fucking Paisley would have approved of - approved of because, like the bold reverend, it smears an entire community as an "enemy within", who are not to be tolerated.

And no, that doesn't mean I think CH's people deserve to be massacred, and if you think it does, please let me tell you to fuck off in advance.

Honestly I agree. The sort of sentiment that this article would inspire it seems to me is that of contempt towards women who wear hijab or towards bakers who god forbid do not sell pork products, and what does this translate to in reality? It looks like women in hijabs being harassed and insulted because it gives further license to those who want to do it, it legitimises their bigotry.

I have actually been working with a woman wearing hijab for the past couple of weeks and the amount of vitriol she gets compared to that of any of my colleagues is just shocking, people really do just look for a chance to pounce on her. It makes me feel a bit ashamed to be honest because as a white male I had no idea what it was like, I still obviously don't but perhaps have a better idea. While I have worked with women wearing hijabs before it was either in jobs with no customers or in call centres where customers didn't know what they were wearing or their religion. I hadn't realised just how constant and intense the vitriol can be or how actually intangible it can be when racism is mixed in with the general low level passive aggressiveness that retail staff deal with on a daily basis. When I read the article I think about that.

I don't think that any of this throws atheists from an Islamic background under the bus, far too much of that has been done and continues to be done, but I do not like the CH article at all.
 
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@Idris the story where you make your grandmother out to be a victim or martyr illustrates perfectly the methods Islamists use to take root in communities. I'm sure she has many other stories.

What utterly disrespectful crap.

All you have said here is tell me another story. One I like and makes me feel safe, right and priviledged.
 
@Idris the story where you make your grandmother out to be a victim or martyr illustrates perfectly the methods Islamists use to take root in communities. I'm sure she has many other stories.

What does this even mean? Do you think that Protestant bigots didn't (and don't) attack Catholics in N. Ireland?
 
I looked over all of this again after getting angry about it previously and I don't think I was wrong at all.

If it hadn't been for the bakery part, I could just have taken the CH piece as expressing a position based around the idea that social pressure that intimidates "us" (and we know very well who "us" here means—white liberals, it's not an inclusive "us") towards self-censorship and lack of criticism directly leads to the development of oppressive and violent groups. I think that idea is facile, patronising toss, admittedly, but I could think that it was what they meant.

But the baker and also the hijab woman takes it over the line; those are both so clearly not examples of legitimate criticism. For the latter: why would you go on "pointing the finger of blame at these women?" Seriously, why would you, unless you had something particular against them? You can say that enforced gender behaviour is unacceptable regardless of the background without hassling people on the street. But we get the straw man that you either ignore everything or you're tearing veils off women. "We should shut up, look elsewhere and move past all the street-insults and rumpus." We need this because the women, after all, are participants in the general problem: they say, sarcastically, "The role of these women, even if they are unaware of it, does not go beyond this".

It's when it moves on to the baker that it sealed it for me. We start with digs at those dumb tolerant folk: "Neither his long beard nor the little prayer-bruise on his forehead (indicative of his great piety) bother his clientele. They are too busy lapping up his lunchtime sandwiches." Why the fuck should I care whether he has a beard or prays? Oh, I'm one of the sheeple who goes to a sandwich shop to buy sandwiches. Nothing in the whole section has anything to do with anything anyone might legitimately complain about, but, oh, "And thus the baker's role is done". Given that he's basically done nothing at all apart from being Muslim and running a shop, the conclusion I draw is that the underlying problem here is the "being Muslim" part, and in the next paragraph we learn that that's indeed the issue and means bombs.

This isn't "we don't show enough solidarity" or "legitimate criticism of people claiming Islamic principles is being stifled by accusations of racism" stuff. For the former, it's not written from a position of solidarity at all, and it comes up with mad EDL type objections to invalidate the latter and focus things on an underlying social threat caused simply by Muslims (that they say "This is not to victimise Islam particularly" doesn't mean anything, because it's not true). If anything, after re-examining it, I think it's worse than I did originally.
 
I'm waiting for the editorial condemning the atrocities Israel is committing on Palestinians, linking it to how we are silent when married Jewish women wear wigs or a Sheitel.


Well jewish extrimists are not to a threat to the uk islamic nutters are thats possibly the big diffrence
 
I looked over all of this again after getting angry about it previously and I don't think I was wrong at all.

If it hadn't been for the bakery part, I could just have taken the CH piece as expressing a position based around the idea that social pressure that intimidates "us" (and we know very well who "us" here means—white liberals, it's not an inclusive "us") towards self-censorship and lack of criticism directly leads to the development of oppressive and violent groups. I think that idea is facile, patronising toss, admittedly, but I could think that it was what they meant.

But the baker and also the hijab woman takes it over the line; those are both so clearly not examples of legitimate criticism. For the latter: why would you go on "pointing the finger of blame at these women?" Seriously, why would you, unless you had something particular against them? You can say that enforced gender behaviour is unacceptable regardless of the background without hassling people on the street. But we get the straw man that you either ignore everything or you're tearing veils off women. "We should shut up, look elsewhere and move past all the street-insults and rumpus." We need this because the women, after all, are participants in the general problem: they say, sarcastically, "The role of these women, even if they are unaware of it, does not go beyond this".

It's when it moves on to the baker that it sealed it for me. We start with digs at those dumb tolerant folk: "Neither his long beard nor the little prayer-bruise on his forehead (indicative of his great piety) bother his clientele. They are too busy lapping up his lunchtime sandwiches." Why the fuck should I care whether he has a beard or prays? Oh, I'm one of the sheeple who goes to a sandwich shop to buy sandwiches. Nothing in the whole section has anything to do with anything anyone might legitimately complain about, but, oh, "And thus the baker's role is done". Given that he's basically done nothing at all apart from being Muslim and running a shop, the conclusion I draw is that the underlying problem here is the "being Muslim" part, and in the next paragraph we learn that that's indeed the issue and means bombs.

This isn't "we don't show enough solidarity" or "legitimate criticism of people claiming Islamic principles is being stifled by accusations of racism" stuff. For the former, it's not written from a position of solidarity at all, and it comes up with mad EDL type objections to invalidate the latter and focus things on an underlying social threat caused simply by Muslims (that they say "This is not to victimise Islam particularly" doesn't mean anything, because it's not true). If anything, after re-examining it, I think it's worse than I did originally.

100pc. It's just basic bigotry.
 
Well jewish extrimists are not to a threat to the uk islamic nutters are thats possibly the big diffrence
We `allow` houses to fly George Crosses and people to wear/display nationalist regalia despite some small amount of `nutters` who fly George Crosses etc hacking arms off Sikh guys in supermarkets, bombing gay pubs...
 
Oh, and I think some people seem to forget why being called a racist for saying things about Islam or Muslims is a potentially damaging slur. It's because we are constantly flooded with racists doing exactly that: in mainstream papers and magazines, on the internet, in casual chats. And if somebody were to try to argue that their objection to a Muslim baker nearby was entirely legitimate because ham and bombers, the racist cunt alert would definitely go off, and I'm pretty sure I would be right.
 
That's why I am unsure wether they are trolling their audience or pandering to Thier prejudice.its so close to poes law that its impossible to tell.
 
That's why I am unsure wether they are trolling their audience or pandering to Thier prejudice.its so close to poes law that its impossible to tell.

You'd have to have a pretty good knowledge of French culture and language, as well as a thorough background reading of CH to decide one way or the other, I reckon.
 
Past form would suggest it's the former,the prayer marks on the forehead suggest they are taking the piss. But the reference to veil wearers in the street is puzzling given the legal status of wearing face coverings in France, suggesting it wasn't written by a French resident,
 
I thought it was potentially a complete troll, but if it is, it's a very well-disguised one, that lots of people are defending as not being a troll.

Sometimes bigotry is just bigotry.
 
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