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Charlie Hebdo massacre and the West's response

It's saying quite plainly that allowing bakers not to sell ham leads to bombing. That's quite an audacious claim. It's also fear-mongering of its own kind. If you tolerate headscarves, your children [being bombed] will be next.

I really don't think it is saying that, and if you want me (for instance) to accept that it is, you're going to have to explain exactly where and how it's saying that.

However, I'm not clear exactly what it is trying to say when it refers to
the bakery that forbids you to eat what you like

because the bakery in this example clearly isn't forbidding anyone to eat what they like, they're simply not stocking a particular product because they chose (for whatever reason, religious, ethical or even commercial) not to stock it.

If the baker (or anyone else) were actively campaigning to prohibit the sale of ham in all shops that would something quite different (just as if a baker was not merely chosing not to ice a particular message or image on their cake, but campaigning to prohibit anyone from icing that message or image), but as far as I can see that's not what's being discussed here :confused:
 
"And that thing which is just about to happen when the taxi-ride ends is but a last step in a journey of rising anxiety.." Whose rising anxiety? The anxiety of people who don't want to seem Islamophobic. The bombing is the end-result of 'a process of cowing and silencing' - whose cowing and silencing? Liberal, secular Europeans.

If you silence the critics of Islam, then you get bombed.
 
because the bakery in this example clearly isn't forbidding anyone to eat what they like, they're simply not stocking a particular product because they chose (for whatever reason, religious, ethical or even commercial) not to stock it.
No, I think the CH piece is saying more than that. They're not just choosing not to stock ham - their decision is impacting on the ability of others to get ham: if that was your local ham shop, and they now no longer stock ham, they are imposing their beliefs on you to an extent by making you seek your ham elsewhere. That's the claim in the CH piece.
 
It's been explained already.

Here, everywhere.

It's easy to ignore if you don't want to see it.

No, it really hasn't, and simply repeating over and over again that it has doesn't make it so, and isn't going to persuade anyone.

This is becoming similar to an assertion of religious faith or something (you and some other believe it's true, therefore it really, really is true), and deserves to be taken just as seriously, ie not at all, IMO.
 
No, it really hasn't, and simply repeating over and over again that it has doesn't make it so, and isn't going to persuade anyone.

This is becoming similar to an assertion of religious faith or something (you and some other believe it's true, therefore it really, really is true), and deserves to be taken just as seriously, ie not at all, IMO.
It's perfectly clear in the text. The bombing is the result of people being cowed into silence about Islam.
 
No, I think the CH piece is saying more than that. They're not just choosing not to stock ham - their decision is impacting on the ability of others to get ham: if that was your local ham shop, and they now no longer stock ham, they are imposing their beliefs on you to an extent by making you seek your ham elsewhere. That's the claim in the CH piece.

I'm not sure if that's the claim they're making or not. The bit I quoted does seem to suggest that, but it also doesn't seem to me to make sense because the idea that one retailer (or even a number of retailers) chosing not to sell ham (or cakes iced with a pro-gay marriage message, or whatever) doesn't really constitute a genuine imposition of beliefs, IMO.

If that is what they're claiming, then it's nonsense, but I have misunderstood CH stuff before, so I'm not going to say I'm sure one way or the other what they're on about
 
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"These young terrorists[']... role is simply to provide the end of a philosophical line already begun. A line which tells us "Hold your tongues, living or dead. Give up discussing, debating, contradicting or contesting..."

You start with being shut up, you end with being bombed. If you're not allowed to criticise Islam, if you're 'forbidden' to eat ham, you're on the way to getting bombed.

How could it be clearer?
 
I'm not sure if that's the claim they're making or not. The bit I quoted does seem to suggest that, but it also doesn't seem to me to make sense because the idea that one retailer (or even a number of retailers) chosing not to sell ham (or cakes iced with a pro-gay marriage message, or whatever) doesn't really constitute a genuine imposition of rights, IMO.

If that is what they're claiming, then it's nonsense, but I have misunderstood CH stuff before, so I'm not going to say I'm sure one way or the other what they're on about

What if it were all the retailers in your area? At some point, it's going to start affecting you.
 
What if it were all the retailers in your area? At some point, it's going to start affecting you.

Lots of things other people do affect me, but the idea that things which adversely affect me necessarily involve others imposing their beliefs is a nonsense, but one which is becoming all-to-common, unfortunately
 
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Lots of things other people do affect me, without meaningfully infringing my rights.

The idea that things which adversely affect me necessarily involve others imposing their beliefs or infringing my rights (I think I managed to conflate those two in my previous post) is a nonsense, but one which is becoming all-to-common, unfortunately
I didn't mention rights. Don't think the CH piece does either, but I may be misremembering.
 
I didn't mention rights. Don't think the CH piece does either, but I may be misremembering.

Yeah, you're right, I added that bit by mistake.

Forget "infringing rights" and stick with "imposing beliefs".

Me being adversely affected by the shop owner not selling ham isn't an example of anyone "imposing beliefs", as far as I can see.
 
So you're assuming that I'm being arsey here? How about a 90-year-old who's lived in the street all her life and it's her local shop. Will you dismiss her so easily.

So many pointless what-ifs.

What if she'd always used that shop but it went out of business and it became a flower shop. Should they get some ham in for her?

Some shops don't sell precisely what you want them to sell. It's only a problem when it's the evil muslims stopping us from doing what we want, amirite.
 
So you're assuming that I'm being arsey here? How about a 90-year-old who's lived in the street all her life and it's her local shop. Will you dismiss her so easily.
'I was perfectly polite, sir. Would you please get out of the way so I can serve these customers. Some of them don't have long to get back home before Shabbat.'
 
So many pointless what-ifs.

What if she'd always used that shop but it went out of business and it became a flower shop. Should they get some ham in for her?

Some shops don't sell precisely what you want them to sell. It's only a problem when it's the evil muslims stopping us from doing what we want, amirite.
They may be 'what-if's but they are the point of the CH article. Better to attack its strongest argument than its weakest.

And your last sentence is also the point of the article, seems to me - you complaining about the disappearance of ham? Must be a racist.
 
These discussions are not being shied away from. There being had constantly.

What's being objected to is people being asked to understand the effects some of their actions might have. They don't like that. Hebdo et al can say what they like, they just don't like being criticised for it. It's free speech one way. Every time. We'll defend one, not the other.

And I get your point about the article arguing for secularism and the ability to criticise and discuss.

That doesn't mean it doesn't also push a dangerous narrative along side that.

You keep saying it's not doing x y or z, and yet it is doing that. It's doing both. "The article's a bit crude" and "I might not have said it like that" and that's the problem.

For all the noble and wildly intelligent and amazing and perfect things the article is supposedly trying to do, it's also giving a rationalist's excuse to blanket demonise an entire group and culture. It doesn't matter if it has noble intentions - it's all in the execution. If everything they put out requires pages and pages and reams and reams to explain why it's satire or why it's actually a good thing, then maybe it's not fit for purpose and there are better ways of doing it that can bring everyone together rather than continuing the narrative that an entire group of people are evil.
The discussions are not being had constantly, because the top-down multicultural project polarises the debate into racists and non-racists. As has happened here. And so discussion becomes about whether what’s been said is racist.

Leave CH aside for now. Decent people like Maryam Namazi – a socialist feminist ex-Muslim – are being lumped along with the far right. She is called racist, she is called Islamophobic, she is vilified, and her points are discounted. People who probably haven’t even heard her speak start from the assumption that she is pro-racist.

Read her Twitter time line. She makes perfectly easy to understand statements which liberal leftists take completely the wrong way, because of the preconceptions they start with, because of the three decades of conditioning that these questions aren’t allowed. The only people who question multiculturalism, the mindset goes, are the far right, so therefore anyone who questions it is far right. I’ve had it myself, and it’s like wading through treacle trying to get people to see what ought to be a straightforward point. What would have been a widely held view on the left had moral relativism not warped the terms of reference.

And that’s what’s happening with this CH piece: it isn’t satire. It’s straight forward commentary. But it is being taken the wrong way by people determined to see racism. Yes, there are a couple of points I disagree with. I’ve discussed them. But just because I disagree with someone doesn’t make them a racist. I agree with the main theme of what is being said by this piece. And just because there are minor things I don’t agree with doesn’t mean I think they shouldn’t be said.

The continual attempts to misinterpret, mislabel, wilfully misunderstand, and generally smear Charlie Hebdo lead me to one conclusion: the people on the so-called left doing the smearing don’t want the murders to have been caused by anything other than what they’ve decided they were caused by. They want Charlie Hebdo to have brought those murders on themselves. They want those murders to be part of a blow against imperialism. Because to see them as anything else means they have to rethink the explanations they have for everything. So Charlie Hebdo are racists.

Except they aren’t.

I was just looking for my copy of Kenan Malik’s Fatwa to Jihad, because there was a passage I wanted to quote. It appears I’ve lent it to someone. It was something like this, though:


“Multiculturalism has helped foster a more tribal nation and, within Muslim communities, has undermined progressive trends while strengthening the hand of conservative religious leaders. While it did not create militant Islam, it helped create for it a space within British Muslim communities that had not existed before.”​


And that’s what this CH piece is talking about, though from a French perspective. This is not about “an entire group of people being evil” as you have read it, it’s about a culture that has had the unintended consequence of boosting the wrong attitudes and the wrong people. Because we don’t want to upset that decent, courageous, dignified woman in the veil by discussing our misgivings about the patriarchy and misogyny, we don’t. We say “She is an admirable woman. She is courageous and dignified, devoted to her family and her children. Why bother her? She harms no one”, and decide that it’s none of our business. We don’t want to give her offence. We don’t really want to give anyone offence. We certainly don’t want to be mistaken for a far right racist. So we keep our misgivings to ourselves. But by doing that we strengthen the hand of conservative religious leaders. And we contribute to the debate being polarised. We are all to blame. That’s how we ended up here.
 
Yep, Malik is spot on. That version of multiculturalism is horribly divisive. It creates parallel, separate communities where there should just be one. A community can be as diverse as you like while still being the same community, but that's not the message. It's not the policy.
 
I think all religions are becoming more militant not just islam and much of the really reactionary and restrictive stuff ie abortion controls in the USA are brought about by people who hate islam.

None of that means that the stuff Namazie etc talk about arent problems but i dont think the rise of political islam is the only reason for the decline of secularism in the west, although its certainly emboldened other forces that hate secularism

Ive not read the CH editorial and dont really want to comment on something ive not read but weren't some of their print runs funded by the french state a while back. Is that still going on? If that is the case how does that effect what they write (or not)?
 
yah. Thats the point I get to with ma when discussing her YE creationism. Faith. But can we through debate not get them to water shit down. I mentioned the society if friends deliberatly, quakers aren't throwing men off buildings for banging other men are they. I did have a reflect on the hebdo article and it occured to me that while obviously daesh style religious law is evil shit but I don't know daesh, I know the clean necked people who work at ma's church on the hub project set up for ketterings homeless and vulnerable. Good people in the scheme of things. And isn't it somehow uglier, to you personally, to find out that they think yeah, the bible says no gayness so no gayness. Let us pray with you to fix your problem


Different social conditions innit? There are churches/christians in the USA that are itching to do a bit of the old smiting and if the uk was in the way syria and iraq are now daesh would be growing massively in some areas and so would christian/far right equivalents.
 
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