Characterising UKIP?

[Awesome Wells]

 

[gosub]

UKIP characterises itself:

Nigel Farage joins forces with far-right Swedish and French MEPs
Ukip leader's group in European parliament includes party founded by white supremacists and ex-FN member
http://www.theguardian.com/politics/2014/jun/18/nigel-farage-far-right-european-parliament

Unwhipped grouping of convienience to enable higher tier funding and speaking time allocation. Given the rules are rigged to make it as hard for minority views to be heard, is a bit of a cheap shot

 

[SpookyFrank]

Unwhipped grouping of convienience to enable higher tier funding and speaking time allocation. Given the rules are rigged to make it as hard for minority views to be heard, is a bit of a cheap shot

That's an argument to defend joining a grouping within the european parliament, but it doesn't excuse them joining that particular group with those particular bedfellows. I'm sure Farage has made the same excuse, but it's just not good enough. The fact is they're in that group because that's where they belong.

 

[gosub]

That's an argument to defend joining a grouping within the european parliament, but it doesn't excuse them joining that particular group with those particular bedfellows. I'm sure Farage has made the same excuse, but it's just not good enough. The fact is they're in that group because that's where they belong.

Whatever, there is now 3 Eurosceptic groupings scrapping around to find the 25 MEPs from 7 member states that you need to be able to speak. Tories nicked 2 of their old group members, (so you could do an unattractive associates their way too), but it was more about trying to deprive the party that won the UK EUro elections of a voice. Actually quite looking forward to what Farage has to say about Juncker, cos the whole rotten system is beyond a joke

 

[SpookyFrank]

Whatever, there is now 3 Eurosceptic groupings scrapping around to find the 25 MEPs from 7 member states that you need to be able to speak. Tories nicked 2 of their old group members, (so you could do an unattractive associates their way too), but it was more about trying to deprive the party that won the UK EUro elections of a voice. Actually quite looking forward to what Farage has to say about Juncker, cos the whole rotten system is beyond a joke

Put it this way, is there any set of circumstances that would induce you to team up with overtly racist organisations?

It's hardly a surprise that euroskeptics struggle to find friends to play with from other parts of Europe is it? They should have thought of that before they decided to be cunts in the first place.

 

[Dogsauce]

Sometimes the supporters do the characterisation themselves:

http://stilllaughingattheukip.wordpress.com/2014/06/23/racism-uncontrolled-mass-racism/

This highlights comments on a post about Chuka on the official UKIP page. This particular blog can be a bit crap for taking the 'pointing and shouting wacist' approach to dealing with UKIP, but still, these comments show a shocking attitude. Sometimes I think we've come along way from how it was when I was growing up, then the internet reminds me that assholes still exist.

 

[laptop]

Sometimes the supporters do the characterisation themselves:

http://stilllaughingattheukip.wordpress.com/2014/06/23/racism-uncontrolled-mass-racism/

This highlights comments on a post about Chuka on the official UKIP page. This particular blog can be a bit crap for taking the 'pointing and shouting wacist' approach to dealing with UKIP, but still, these comments show a shocking attitude. Sometimes I think we've come along way from how it was when I was growing up, then the internet reminds me that assholes still exist.

That's gross...

 

[Dogsauce]

Thing is, I think the internet has provided a useful echo chamber for racists. Whilst I've worked with some quite racist people over the years (more directed at Asians in recent years) they've tended not to speak out much, keep their heads down, been challenged by others and in most cases would never actually go out of their way to be offensive to a person, they just 'don't like them' and keep out of their way. With stuff like Facebook you have a platform for people to express opinions with similar minded people and let it all out and gain confidence that it's alright to say this stuff, and pages like the UKIP become a natural home for anti-immigrant expression. To wade in and challenge it on every occasion this stuff crops up (and local paper websites are full of it - plenty of retired bigots with time on their hands) seems pointless and time-consuming, and probably doesn't actually achieve anything.

I don't know if it's countered by more leftist stuff being shared or organised in a similar way on the same platforms - you don't seem to see so much UKuncut stuff getting shared anymore, and the 'lefties' on Twitter seem mostly tied up in sexual politics or arguing with each other.

 

[nino_savatte]

It's not just Facebook either, The Telegraph (online version) has become a repository of extreme right-wing views. A blog commenting on the Umunna saga, is full of comments from the usual nutcases. Most of whom mention Umunna's ethnicity (He's half-Irish, half-Nigerian with a grandfather who was a high court judge) and repeat the usual "go back home" crap.

 

[treelover]

Whats Ummana been up to now then?

 

[ViolentPanda]

Sometimes the supporters do the characterisation themselves:

http://stilllaughingattheukip.wordpress.com/2014/06/23/racism-uncontrolled-mass-racism/

This highlights comments on a post about Chuka on the official UKIP page. This particular blog can be a bit crap for taking the 'pointing and shouting wacist' approach to dealing with UKIP, but still, these comments show a shocking attitude. Sometimes I think we've come along way from how it was when I was growing up, then the internet reminds me that assholes still exist.

Don't get me wrong, I think Chuka (my local MP) is an utter anus - he's the worst sort of careerist Labour machine politician - but if you're going to challenge him, then it should be on his politics, not on his heritage like these shitheads are doing.

 

[J Ed]

What's the point?

 

[frogwoman]

Isnt there a risk that describing ukip as fash (ive seen them described as Nazis ffs) when they've got the same policies as the right wing of the tory party will just end up a self fulfilling prophecy?

 

[dennisr]

What's the point?

At least the speakers include an voting alternative and striking workers. Still no 'expose' beyond "they are racist" on the leaflet though. Maybe the back spells it out. Here in Thanet South - where Farage is standing the SUTU campaign is led by an ex-swappie who is, in effect, trying to get the green candidate to stand down in favour of some new labourite. The public campaign (despite the cynical nods in the direction of critics from the left when occasionally challenged about the tactic...) is just "they are racist" - no context - no recognition that peple are voting for ukip as a confused 'anti-establishment' vote, certainly no class based critisism of what ukip are really about. Maybe i'm wrong, but it seems to be just a polarising campaign making the rightous feel good about themselves while potentially driving ukip sympathiers further down the "well, I must be a racist" path - that they seem to add to the feeling of a strong presence of ukip in the town - what about the parties driving racist and anti-working class politics who are in power - nothing said. Their answer seems to be 'vote for the least bad one of them'.

A couple of days ago I see the usual suspects on the SUTU campaign while up the road a poshly dressed black woman hands out ukip leaflets.

 

[treelover]

Jo Cardwell, so yet another SWP front

 

[two sheds]

Isnt there a risk that describing ukip as fash (ive seen them described as Nazis ffs) when they've got the same policies as the right wing of the tory party will just end up a self fulfilling prophecy?

I'm presuming the best approach to countering the 'man of the people' image is to lay out where Farage made his money and is getting his money (good little piece in Private Eye on that this issue), and then add a few colourful examples of their previous candidate hatstands to suggest what life will be like under Ukippery.

 

[butchersapron]

That's what's been happening isn't it? How is that working?

 

[isvicthere?]

http://newsthump.com/2014/11/28/uki...fits-whilst-simultaneously-stealing-your-job/

 

[butchersapron]

See?

 

[andysays]

That's what's been happening isn't it? How is that working?

Is that actually happening to a significant extent?

Most of what I've been aware of is either "UKIP and their support is racist/fascist" nonsense or unfunny and unproductive "spoofery" of the kind isvicthere? has just provided an excellent example of.

 

[butchersapron]

Is that actually happening to a significant extent?

Most of what I've been aware of is either UKIP and their support is racist/fascist nonsense or unfunny and unproductive "spoofery" of the kind isvicthere? has just provided an excellent example of.

Yes, it's exactly what's been happening. Farage is posh and look at the bonkers stuff ukip members say.

 

[isvicthere?]

Is that actually happening to a significant extent?

Most of what I've been aware of is either "UKIP and their support is racist/fascist" nonsense or unfunny and unproductive "spoofery" of the kind isvicthere? has just provided an excellent example of.

So, it's "nonsense" to dismiss the staunchly anti-immigrant UKIP as "racist", is it?

 

[butchersapron]

So, it's "nonsense" to dismiss the staunchly anti-immigrant UKIP as "racist", is it?

It's nonsense to dismiss their supporters as racist yes. It Really really is.

Nice loaded and leading question btw. Do you do that in the classroom?

 

[andysays]

Yes, it's exactly what's been happening. Farage is posh and look at the bonkers stuff ukip members say.

That seems like a bit of a characture of what two sheds is suggesting. I haven't read the Private Eye piece he was referring to, so can't comment on that, but there is scope for genuine criticism of UKIP which points out Farage and co's background in the finance world (rather than just pointing out that he's "posh"), and examines where their interests and sympathies really lie without reducing it to them being all about the racism.

I'm sure such criticism exists, but I haven't seen much sign of it - it's largely overwhelmed by the simplistic nonsense which, as we've seen, has no effect other than further alienating those who might be sympathetic to UKIP's anti-establishment pretence.

 

[butchersapron]

That seems like a bit of a characture of what two sheds is suggesting. I haven't read the Private Eye piece he was referring to, so can't comment on that, but there is scope for genuine criticism of UKIP which points out Farage and co's background in the finance world (rather than just pointing out that he's "posh"), and examines where their interests and sympathies really lie without reducing it to them being all about the racism.

I'm sure such criticism exists, but I haven't seen much sign of it - it's largely overwhelmed by the simplistic nonsense which, as we've seen, has no effect other than further alienating those who might be sympathetic to UKIP's anti-establishment pretence.

No it's not. It's what has happened. Over and over over and over. Oh look at what ukip members say. That was pretty much the media narrative until may. Now they are left holding the baby with no understanding of why.

 

[andysays]

So, it's "nonsense" to dismiss the staunchly anti-immigrant UKIP as "racist", is it?

It's nonsense to dismiss UKIP (the party) as merely racist, and it's nonsense (and totally counter productive) to suggest that their appeal/support is based simply on racism.

It's been said many, many times here, but UKIP as a party are not uniquely anti-immigrant or racist, and to reduce the Tories, LibDems or Labour to being "anti immigrant" or any other single facet of their overall approach would be equally nonsense, though for some reason people don't tend to do that...

 

[andysays]

No it's not. It's what has happened. Over and over over and over. Oh look at what ukip members say. That was pretty much the media narrative until may. Now they are left holding the baby with no understanding of why.

OK, I think we're at cross purposes now.

I agree that there's been plenty of Oh look at what ukip members say.

I'm wondering why there hasn't been more of what I called above

genuine criticism of UKIP which points out Farage and co's background in the finance world (rather than just pointing out that he's "posh"), and examines where their interests and sympathies really lie without reducing it to them being all about the racism

I thought that was what two sheds was calling for, though having re-read I suspect I may have been giving him the benefit of the doubt, and what you're characterising him as saying is less of a characature than I thought.

 

[littlebabyjesus]

It's nonsense to dismiss UKIP (the party) as merely racist, and it's nonsense (and totally counter productive) to suggest that their appeal/support is based simply on racism.

It's been said many, many times here, but UKIP as a party are not uniquely anti-immigrant or racist, and to reduce the Tories, LibDems or Labour to being "anti immigrant" or any other single facet of their overall approach would be equally nonsense, though for some reason people don't tend to do that...

Sorry, but I think that's balls. UKIP are anti-EU first and foremost because membership of the EU leads to uncontrolled immigration. That's their thing. Anything else they may have in terms of policy - and it's not much - is secondary stuff most people don't even know about. UKIP exist to get Britain out of the EU, and limiting immigration is the single clarion call - they are of course quite right that you can't limit immigration from the EU without leaving the EU, and that is hitting a chord. It's hitting a chord most where there are fewest immigrants, because people are blaming all kinds of social ills, from lack of jobs to lack of housing, on immigration. UKIP is winning that narrative. It has Cameron following it now.

'anti-immigration' is UKIP.

 

[butchersapron]

Sorry, but I think that's balls. UKIP are anti-EU first and foremost because membership of the EU leads to uncontrolled immigration. That's their thing. Anything else they may have in terms of policy - and it's not much - is secondary stuff most people don't even know about. UKIP exist to get Britain out of the EU, and limiting immigration is the single clarion call - they are of course quite right that you can't limit immigration from the EU without leaving the EU, and that is hitting a chord. It's hitting a chord most where there are fewest immigrants, because people are blaming all kinds of social ills, from lack of jobs to lack of housing, on immigration. UKIP is winning that narrative. It has Cameron following it now.

'anti-immigration' is UKIP.

Yeah, ignore all the people supporting UKIP and talk just about UKIP and its formal policies. Working a treat right now.

 

[butchersapron]

Sorry, but I think that's balls. UKIP are anti-EU first and foremost because membership of the EU leads to uncontrolled immigration. That's their thing. Anything else they may have in terms of policy - and it's not much - is secondary stuff most people don't even know about. UKIP exist to get Britain out of the EU, and limiting immigration is the single clarion call - they are of course quite right that you can't limit immigration from the EU without leaving the EU, and that is hitting a chord. It's hitting a chord most where there are fewest immigrants, because people are blaming all kinds of social ills, from lack of jobs to lack of housing, on immigration. UKIP is winning that narrative. It has Cameron following it now.

'anti-immigration' is UKIP.

Can you support this claim that UKIP poll/vote better in areas with fewest immigrants? You really better be able to.