brogdale
Coming to terms with late onset Anarchism
What, the sex question?
Reckon folk should be able to say what the fuck they like, or nothing at all if they choose.
Census 2021
- Thread starter brogdale
- Start date
Reckon folk should be able to say what the fuck they like, or nothing at all if they choose.
co-op
But....but cLoWnFiSh....
According to the evidence given in court about 20% of returns had already been done. It was pretty shabby by the ONS which has done everything it can to muddy the waters on this.
co-op
But....but cLoWnFiSh....
What's wrong with asking people the two questions?
One about sex, one about gender identity.
Everyone gets some actual information about wtf is actually happening which is - er - the ONS's actual job. Instead they suddenly caved into to Stonewall et al, and said - in effect - you can answer both questions according to gender identity, thus rendering both questions meaningless.
And now they've been told to stop it by a judge.
brogdale
Coming to terms with late onset Anarchism
In the forthcoming ONS review of how 'administrative data' might replace the fill-blown census in 2031, I'm sure that they'll consider how they already, effectively have the sex data from their near real-time, dynamic data sets from registration of births, marriages, deaths, migration etc.
Not really sure why that is asked for on the census.
belboid
Exasperated, not angry.
Why didn’t you complain ten years ago when exactly the same wording was used? No one cared then, probably because everyone knows that the only people who have a passport in the gender they were not assigned at birth are perfectly serious and probably have a good reason for not undergoing full body surgery to live their life. The idea that they 'caved to Stonewall' is just a bigoted lie. Women weren't written out of existence ten years ago when the same wording was used, so the feared effect doesn't seem to be true.
Dont know why you are asking the question no one asked - what's wrong with two questions? Almost no one objects to two questions, although one of the tiny groups that did was.......more terf's who didn't want the question on gender to exist at all!
At least the transphobic bigots from FPW will have one of their favourite claims thrown out when the census shows that the number of lesbians is at the highest ever.
belboid
Exasperated, not angry.
muddy the waters? Of course, saying the same thing as ten years ago is appalling isnt it? What scumbags.
stethoscope
Well-Known Member
For many going through the transition process, a passport is usually the first document that trans people will obtain as part of the documented proof of transition, and to ensure continued support through the pathway - and even then, a passport only gets issued with a different gender marker through official support through a GIC and/or GP. when doing so. A GRC is something that often comes much latter - for a start it has to be applied for, providing documentation and evidence of having gone through transition with a GIC, has transitioned for at least two years, sometimes surgery letters (although surgery is not required), and often passport, deed poll is required as part of that. All signed off again by a GIC psychiatrist.
Why I've been saying for ages just how disingenuous such a lot of this 'debate' has been - where was the outrage from these people so seemingly invested in trans issues, feminism or other gender politics ten years ago? We even had threads on urban and I can't remember some of the more recently most vocal people HAVING CONCERNS1!1! then. Fuck urban, seriously.
brogdale
Coming to terms with late onset Anarchism
True, but papers associated with settlement/naturalisation etc. would all include sex.
belboid
Exasperated, not angry.
Not everyone in the UK has applied for citizenship, naturalisation or anything of the kind.
brogdale
Coming to terms with late onset Anarchism
Again, a good point; but with the 2011 census at 94% return, I'd imagine that 'undocumented' migration is unlikely to exceed 6% of the population, so the dynamic, admin data they already have on sex is likely to be every bit as complete as any gathered through the census question?
brogdale
Coming to terms with late onset Anarchism
Not convinced by the sums tbh.
ONS reckon they missed 3.4m of those normally resident in E&W, so it would take a massive under-registration of migrants' sex to get anywhere near that.
e2a: the dynamic administrative data from registration would give greater coverage of sex.
belboid
Exasperated, not angry.
but they are two wholly different groups, it is daft to think one can just substitute for the other.
brogdale
Coming to terms with late onset Anarchism
If overall quantity of data is the state's aim, then admin data on sex giving greater coverage than the census data would suggest that they'll favour the former in their 2023 review.
brogdale
Coming to terms with late onset Anarchism
Wonder whether the 2021 online default will affect the response rate?
I've heard some say that it may increase the coverage amongst the young/tech savvy, but I'm still wondering if the absence of the actual big form through the letterbox will cause more to disregard the exercise?
I've heard some say that it may increase the coverage amongst the young/tech savvy, but I'm still wondering if the absence of the actual big form through the letterbox will cause more to disregard the exercise?
Pickman's model
Starry Wisdom
perhaps the boredom of the pandemic will encourage a higher participation
belboid
Exasperated, not angry.
You seem to be missing the point. Yes, using such data will give arguably better results for that group, but it wont, by definition, include anyone not in it. And we want to know more than just the total number of people born in the uk who were ascribed male or female at birth.
brogdale
Coming to terms with late onset Anarchism
You know, that could well be a thing.
My old Mum sounded quite excited that she'd had the letter...something had happened!
brogdale
Coming to terms with late onset Anarchism
Are you seriously suggesting that the state doesn't record the sex of any migrants seeking some form of 'documentation'?
belboid
Exasperated, not angry.
Are you seriously suggesting that every migrant over here seeks some form of documentation? Or that, where that has been done, those records are fully up to date? Even you must be aware of the excess of NI numbers issued and the fact that many of the people to whom they have been issued are not in the country any more.
brogdale
Coming to terms with late onset Anarchism
No and no, but unless you're suggesting that migrants without any form of documentation exceed 3.8m in E&W, then the totality of registration and admin data on sex would be greater.
belboid
Exasperated, not angry.
christ almighty, its like trying to get through to wellington boot. To repeat, very slowly....
It is not about the simple total number. It is about how those numbers are broken down in different groups. You are trying to compare apples and oranges, for some bizarre reason.
And 6% of the English and Welsh population is 3.3 million, not 3.8. Maybe we should just accept figures aren't your strong point.
brogdale
Coming to terms with late onset Anarchism
Apologies, 3.4M is, as you say, the correct E&W undercount for E&W in 2011.
brogdale
Coming to terms with late onset Anarchism
Anyone familiar with demography will tell you that sex-bias amongst migrant populations is always higher than in the resident population, so having the admin/registration data for migrants is likely to have a more significant impact on national sex balance figures than relying on the censal data that tend to undercount migrant groups for obvious reasons.
belboid
Exasperated, not angry.
So you are agreeing that simply swapping one group for the other is nonsense, and that your original argument was stupid. Cool.
brogdale
Coming to terms with late onset Anarchism
It's not a question of swapping any groups, but whether or not the state needs to ask about sex in the census.
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