campaign against welfare cuts and poverty

[yield]

I doubt many people see it as "fair". I would imagine even within the minority there are those who feel its "unfair", although "fair" is largely subjective and not necessarily relevant.

How about moral then if "fair is largely subjective and not necessarily relevant"?

Our social relationships are the basis of society. The world would be a better place with more equitable outcomes.

Again much of that is global & transferable.

A lot of that wealth can vanish in a heart beat in the face of hostility.

Agree with you there as things stand at the moment. But what about alternative systems?

Including the missing trillions or various corporate wealth in budgets is akin to including possible future loans in your personal budget. Its a risky game because if you cant lay your hands on the money eventually youre going to have a big black hole where your life used to be.

A nations finances have many differences to a household budget though. Deficit spending at times of a tax shortfall is conservative economics.

Banks are part of the story but far from all of it, & even in the part they played greed & addiction raised their ugly heads.

For sure lots of bankers are greedy money addicts. Which other parts of the story do you have in mind?

 

[Ash Mahay]

How about moral then if "fair is largely subjective and not necessarily relevant"?

I hate to sound like a nit picker but I cant say that "moral" isnt subjective too.

Dont get me wrong. Im currently on £67 a week (with no savings) so Im not exactly championing the "fairness" or "morality" of mine or anyone elses position, it just is that these are subjective.

What is fair? What is morally right?

Ask everyone on the planet and youll find a world of answers.

I knew a guy in the far east (20 years ago) who had a one room house, a small plot of land (not much bigger than a double garage) & an income of around £100 a YEAR. Hed probably think my £67 a week was unfair and not moral, but Id be the first to shout "unfair" if they wanted to cut it!

 

[treelover]

​

Politics and the Paralympics: Voters are against cuts to disability benefits

​

Coalition praises athletes but overlooks others, says survey​

​

'Three-quarters of people think that people with disabilities often experience prejudice or discrimination in society, wihile almost the same proportion think disabled people are invisible in the media outside the Paralympics. But it is the suggestion, by 41 per cent of people, that the Government could do more to help that will reverberate in Westminster at a time when the public has been gripped by the spectacle of the Paralympics.'​

http://www.independent.co.uk/sport/...inst-cuts-to-disability-benefits-8100742.html​

​

Lots of people disagree with you...

 

[yield]

I hate to sound like a nit picker but I cant say that "moral" isnt subjective too.

Dont get me wrong. Im currently on £67 a week (with no savings) so Im not exactly championing the "fairness" or "morality" of mine or anyone elses position, it just is that these are subjective.

What is fair? What is morally right?

A decent, affordable home, a job at a proper wage, free healthcare and benefits for those who are unable to work due to age or illness?

Sorry to hear that you're on the dole. With a phd too. What did you study? I'm sure there are others in the same situation.

 

[treelover]

'Our local charity called Swans which helped disabled people find work had its government funding removed !!!!! Cameron says one thing and does and does the opposite''

''I visited Diane Abbot in late 2009 to complain about the ESA. She didn't even know what it was, I kid you not and she is on the left of the party..supposedly.''





Some very revealing comments in the Indie article

 

[weepiper]

current JSA and IS rate is £71 a week

 

[Ash Mahay]

current JSA and IS rate is £71 a week

Im £4 a week down paying back a social fund loan. I dont know many people who get the full amount without deductions.

 

[treelover]

Have you read 'The Ragged Trousered Philanthropists'?

 

[treelover]

The solutions it offers were it least in part manifested in the post war settlement of the Attlee government that has been under attack since the 1980's. But the overarching questions that it asks -What are the causes of poverty, why do those oppressed willingly accept the values of the oppressors, why do they not rise up in revolt and take issue with the system that disadvantages them, remain vibrant.

this is part of a review on Amazon, it says all that needs to be said...

 

[Ash Mahay]

Have you read 'The Ragged Trousered Philanthropists'?

A long time ago, yes.

 

[ViolentPanda]

http://www.thesun.co.uk/sol/homepage/news/politics/4516400/Hardship-handouts-scrapped.html

Hardship fund scrapped - loans from now on.



yeah, cos when benefits get sanctioned and people apply for hardship fund it's so they can go on holiday

He's also trailing vouchers/pre-paid card scheme to stop people "squandering" money. Can see it happening at some point.

It's been almost impossible to get HF grants for years to pay for essentials, let alone the tabloidesque "Sky TV" bullshit Duncan Shit is crapping out of his gob.

 

[Pickman's model]

current JSA and IS rate is £71 a week

fucking ridiculous, it's gone up less than a tenner in the last 8 years.

 

[treelover]

Smith lies all the time, but NL, (and i think it is still that) and Liam Bryne basically agree with him and don't challenge him....

 

[weepiper]

fucking ridiculous, it's gone up less than a tenner in the last 8 years.

'why should those lazy bastards get a pay rise when your wages haven't gone up?'

 

[ViolentPanda]

Wasnt that the policy of most of the last 20 years & are people not at greater risk today because of it?

I think that if that's your view, you're either naive, or so partisan you can't see beyond your own arse. The last 30 years have been an inexorable shift away from addressing "now" in terms of social issues, in favour of "jam tomorrow" vagueness and a neoliberal agenda that sees any form of welfare spending as wasteful.

Lib, Lab, or Con, all reluctant to embrace reallity and instead looking for expensive short term band aids that need paying for eventually, & the price? Cuts.

There was I thinking that cuts were to pay for capitalism's vinegar strokes in 2007-08, but hey, blame the politicians and even the electorate if that gets you hard!

Despite a reduced growth in spending over the last two decades all parties are looking at some form of cuts at the moment because even the reduced rate of growth was still mismanaged and full of unaffordable waste.

You're starting to sound like a full-pager for the Tax-Avoiders' Alliance, chuntering out vague stock phrases about "growth", "waste" and "mismanagement". Let's unpack these phrases:
Reduced growth: Measured against what? Previous market performance? If so, does that "previous market performance" include other ejaculatory spasms in capitalism's long march, such as the various burst bubbles and market crashes of the last 30 years, or do they get smoothed out on your belll curve for growth?
Mismanagement: What are you measuring the management of, and what are you measuring it against?
Unaffordable waste: Of what resources, and measured against what base figure for depreciation?

How long do we play the game for?

We could effectively borrow to stave off cuts, but that just increases debt and requires MORE cuts in the future.

Everyone knows the system doesnt work as it is (even if they wont always say so in quite such candid language), but fear of a backlash keeps all sides locked into bandaid and duct tape solutions that just rachet up the problem for the next term.

Sooner or later were going to have to break that cycle, or else it will break us.

Its time to lay off the band aids and to look at alternative systems and set ups.

Depends whether you propose a humane solution, or an instrumental one.

 

[Pickman's model]

'why should those lazy bastards get a pay rise when your wages haven't gone up?'

because they need it and don't have the option, as i do, of going on strike in furtherance of a pay claim?

 

[ViolentPanda]

I got my phds a long time ago lol

One can only hope that your subject wasn't anything to do with economics.

 

[ViolentPanda]

Smith lies all the time, but NL, (and i think it is still that) and Liam Bryne basically agree with him and don't challenge him....

They can't, because ideologically they're the same. Like I've said before: Same shit, different arseholes.

 

[weepiper]

because they need it and don't have the option, as i do, of going on strike in furtherance of a pay claim?

Well obviously. Seen that argument many many times on fb and newspaper comments though.

When you think that the minimum wage you would earn for a 35 hour week has gone up by 65 quid in ten years but the JSA rate has only gone up by 15 quid it puts things in perspective a bit though doesn't it.

 

[Pickman's model]

Well obviously. Seen that argument many many times on fb and newspaper comments though.

When you think that the minimum wage you would earn for a 35 hour week has gone up by 65 quid in ten years but the JSA rate has only gone up by 15 quid it puts things in perspective a bit though doesn't it.

i'm not sure where you're going with this, as i was simply observing how little it has risen since i last signed on, but you seem to be trying to make a rather different point.

 

[weepiper]

i'm not sure where you're going with this, as i was simply observing how little it has risen since i last signed on, but you seem to be trying to make a rather different point.

not really. I was agreeing with you that it hasn't risen anywhere near as much as it should have but at the same time have been arguing lately with too many dickheads (not meaning you btw) who don't think beyond the kind of tripe we are fed by the media. I remember the scandal in the papers when they set this year's rates that it was going to go up by 5.2%




Edit, 'two many dickheads' FFS

 

[Ash Mahay]

One can only hope that your subject wasn't anything to do with economics.

After your little fairytale post above at least thats something we can be sure you never studied.

Tell me do facts, or real life ever get in the way of your reading and ideologies?

 

[treelover]

mmm, taking on VP....

 

[yield]

After your little fairytale post above at least thats something we can be sure you never studied.

Tell me do facts, or real life ever get in the way of your reading and ideologies?

Rather than getting riled. Explain what you stand for!

What did you study? Tell more about yourself.

 

[Captain Hurrah]

The latest troll?

 

[Greebo]

After your little fairytale post above at least thats something we can be sure you never studied.

Tell me do facts, or real life ever get in the way of your reading and ideologies?

Okay, sweetie, you can stop waving that willy around. It's not as if many people will notice it without using a microscope.

 

[Greebo]

mmm, taking on VP....

Good timing though: He'll be logging off soon, if he hasn't already.

 

[equationgirl]

Youre right. I was never good at English but then again I feel I do ok considering I was largely self taught and dyslexic.

It didnt make my Uni entry very easy either. A lack of acedemic history doesnt go down to well but I managed to overcome the prejudice of morons.

Please don't use the word 'morons' on this board. It is not acceptable to do so.

 

[Ash Mahay]

mmm, taking on VP....

Lol I think if you read the thread again you will see its the other way around and it was Mr Panda (or Mrs Panda?) waving their metaphorical willy about.

It seems one or two people missed (or selectively chose to ignore) Mr Pandas post that I was responding too. Mind you its the usual forum Napoleonics, as found all over the internet, thats often over looked.

Lets look back shall we?

I was "naive" or "partisan" & cant see beyond my own "arse" for effectively saying:

http://news.bbcimg.co.uk/media/images/49310000/gif/_49310591_welfare_464.gif

The fact its true doesnt even enter the equation. In fact I suspect with Mr Panda, as alluded to above, facts, truth, reality & the like are probably frequently ignored, or distorted, if inconvenient & instead insults are pulled out.

Have you read the thread.

Day one, to recap, I was a Tory lord, a troll twice, some seemed obsessed with my willy, & my education was attacked numerous times.

Not that I cant take it. You see that sort of behaviour all over the internet. Most forums have their little Napoleans and their little cliques ready to rain down flames & insults on any new comer who doesnt immediately appear to support everything they say, or believe in.

You get it in all walks of life to be fair.

Maybe Im being to harsh? If I am Im sorry but you can only judge as you find. When youre welcomed with insults by those who over look reality how else can you see things?

If I do have Mr Panda (& a few others) wrong then I genuinely apologize, but then if I do have them wrong theyll be cringing at their own posts right now & fully understanding of how I got the wrong impression.

If the welcome comitee has finished now though Id suggest we get this thread back on topic?

 

[Pickman's model]

Okay, sweetie, you can stop waving that willy around. It's not as if many people will notice it without using a microscope.

"it's like a willy only smaller"