Bye bye MEAT! How will the post-meat future look?

[bcuster]

It's revealing how the authoritarian tendencies are spilling out. And it isn't meat-eaters insisting that others eat meat. It isn't meat-eaters throwing around insults at vegans. It is the reverse. Time and again, editor, JeffR and others don't even bother concealing their contempt for anyone who doesn't agree with them that meat-eating is wrong. When push comes to shove, they're happy to impose their will on others, delighted when they see others doing so.

I don't want to live in your world, editor. I don't presume to dictate to others how they should live. You repeat the same mistake again and again. Your position is so morally bankrupt that you will cheer on authoritarianism and delight in the consequences of the cost of living crisis. You have no politics. Nothing.

It is very difficult to argue around the issue of cruelty that is inseparable from the consumption of meat… We do have laws from proper authorities to prohibit that conduct. It is not a far stretch to include the authority to prohibit flesh consumption

 

[Jeff Robinson]

It's revealing how the authoritarian tendencies are spilling out. And it isn't meat-eaters insisting that others eat meat. It isn't meat-eaters throwing around insults at vegans. It is the reverse. Time and again, editor, JeffR and others don't even bother concealing their contempt for anyone who doesn't agree with them that meat-eating is wrong. When push comes to shove, they're happy to impose their will on others, delighted when they see others doing so.

I don't want to live in your world, editor. I don't presume to dictate to others how they should live. You repeat the same mistake again and again. Your position is so morally bankrupt that you will cheer on authoritarianism and delight in the consequences of the cost of living crisis. You have no politics. Nothing.

I take it you’re opposed to banning foie gras, dog fighting, bear baiting, fox hunting, gestation crates, the ivory trade and so forth then, seeing as you would never want to impose your will on others?

 

[DaphneM]

The Gish gallop is a rhetorical technique in which a person in a debate attempts to overwhelm their opponent by providing an excessive number of arguments with no regard for the accuracy or strength of those arguments. Wikipedia

there's a lot of this on this thread

 

[CNT36]

The Gish gallop is a rhetorical technique in which a person in a debate attempts to overwhelm their opponent by providing an excessive number of arguments with no regard for the accuracy or strength of those arguments. Wikipedia

there's a lot of this on this thread

I don't think the link dumps are part of any debate tbh just stuff particular posters may have found interesting

 

[Funky_monks]

I don't think the link dumps are part of any debate tbh just stuff particular posters may have found interesting

Plenty of them are exactly the same article posted again and again, presumably "for emphasis" or something (or at least thats what's said when those posters have been challenged).

 

[editor]

By a minority of students.

Yes, that's how democratic voting works. If you can't be arsed to vote, you don't get a say.

Loads of councillors and MPs get in on minority votes. Are you suggesting they should be thrown out of office because you don't personally like the results? Because once outside forces start upturning democratic votes then you've gone from supposed 'authoritarianism' (lol) to something that begins to look like fascism.

Six years ago the students voted to get beef off the menu. Do you have a problem with that too, and if so, why?

 

[friedaweed]

What’s at the bottom of the slippery slope in this metaphor?

A burger van doing a mint in bacon sarnies.

 

[WouldBe]

Yes, that's how democratic voting works. If you can't be arsed to vote, you don't get a say.

There are over 21000 students at Cambridge. Not all of the 100 that voted, voted in favour. That works out at about 0.4% of the students which is hardly representative is it?

Perhaps all votes should be like they have in unions where unless the majority vote then the ballot is invalid. I wonder how well the result would turn out if this was the case.

 

[editor]

There are over 21000 students at Cambridge. Not all of the 100 that voted, voted in favour. That works out at about 0.4% of the students which is hardly representative is it?

Perhaps all votes should be like they have in unions where unless the majority vote then the ballot is invalid. I wonder how well the result would turn out if this was the case.

Thing is, you only give a shit about the result because it hasn't gone the way you'd like it to. In reality, it's got absolutely fuck all to do with you. It's literally none of your business.

PS You know the votes were cast by student representatives, yes?

The group’s motion, which calls for the change in response to “climate and biodiversity crises”, was supported by 72 percent of non-abstaining student representatives who voted following a four-week consultation process.

Cambridge students vote for entirely vegan menu for catering services following campaign by XR offshoot

Students at Cambridge University have voted to back a transition to an entirely vegan menu across all its catering services.

www.lbc.co.uk

 

[WouldBe]

Thing is, you only give a shit about the result because it hasn't gone the way you'd like it to. In reality, it's got absolutely fuck all to do with you. It's literally none of your business.

Just as it's non of yours

PS You know the votes were cast by student representatives, yes?

72% of non abstaining votes. So if 90 representatives abstained then only around 7 voted in favour. Hardly a landslide is it.

 

[Jeff Robinson]

Just as it's non of yours

72% of non abstaining votes. So if 90 representatives abstained then only around 7 voted in favour. Hardly a landslide is it.

"if" doing a lot of heavy lifting there.

 

[WouldBe]

"if" doing a lot of heavy lifting there.

So is 0.4%

 

[bcuster]

Oat, almond and soy can be called milk, FDA says in new guidance

Soy, oat, almond and other drinks that bill themselves as “milk” can keep using the name, according to draft federal rules released Wednesday.

www.marketwatch.com

 

[Jeff Robinson]

Oat, almond and soy can be called milk, FDA says in new guidance

Soy, oat, almond and other drinks that bill themselves as “milk” can keep using the name, according to draft federal rules released Wednesday.

www.marketwatch.com

British and European legal regulation is demented on this issue - producers can't label almond milk almond milk even though everyone calls it almond milk. The rationale is that allowing almond milk to be called almond milk would confuse consumers, like, they might think it comes from an almond cow or something.

 

[editor]

Oat, almond and soy can be called milk, FDA says in new guidance

Soy, oat, almond and other drinks that bill themselves as “milk” can keep using the name, according to draft federal rules released Wednesday.

www.marketwatch.com

Common sense at last!

 

[editor]

Excellent piece on Forbes summing the scaremongering being generated against meat alternatives:

Many of the health-related criticisms of plant- and cell-cultured meat seem to be exercises in scaremongering over nutritional bogeymen like GMOs, “processed” foods, and long ingredient lists. They often ignore the tangible health advantages that these alternatives have over traditional meat. Some of the environmental critiques are little more than lists of hypotheticals, rather than comprehensive comparisons of the effects of traditional vs. alternative meat on the environment. A thorough comparison would examine the effects of the products on not just climate change, but also on land use, pollution, and freshwater consumption. It is important for journalists to remain skeptical of hype and marketing claims, of course. But to responsibly inform the public, they should present the evidence for both sides of a claim.

Just this week, in a “puzzling” article for Bloomberg, writer Joe Fassler explored a link between cell-cultured meat and cancer that, as even he acknowledges, is baseless. The article suggests that the use of “immortalized cells” (i.e. cells that proliferate indefinitely) in meat cultivation may be a carcinogenic concern for humans. Though he doesn’t explicitly state the reason for his concern, it is presumably because cancer cells, like immortalized cells, also proliferate at a higher rate than other cells of their kind. Oddly, he states upfront that—according to leading cancer researchers—it is “essentially impossible” for the immortalized cells in alternative meat to cause cancer in humans, since they are not human cells. Yet he spends several hundred more words examining the made-up controversy further.

And there's certainly echoes of this happening here:

Prominent voices are also pointing out the stunning irony of the impossible level of scrutiny placed on new, environmentally-minded products while legitimate concerns about traditional meat continuously receive a pass. There’s no evidence that cell-cultured meat will cause cancer in humans, but processed meat like deli slices, sausages, hot dogs, and bacon is known to be carcinogenic. Red meat is also recognized as a probable carcinogen by major authorities like the World Health Organization.

And this:

All of this is coming right on the heels of another poorly substantiated alt-meat piece from Bloomberg: Deena Shanker’s article on the supposed “death” of plant-based meat. The article exaggerates the recent dip in sales of products like Beyond Meat and Impossible Foods burgers, characterizing a 14% drop—during an overall economic downturn—as a “plummet.” The nutritional claims in the article are grossly oversimplified, using terms like “refined” and “processed” as shorthand for “bad” or “unhealthy,” rather than defining those very general terms and engaging with the reliable, though complicated, nutritional findings that do exist.

Is The Media Biased Against Plant-Based And Cell-Cultured Meat?

Skepticism is healthy, but much of the alternative protein backlash has been premised on little more than fear mongering and misleadingly presented information.

www.forbes.com

Bloomberg Shredded for Amazingly Stupid Article About Fake Meat and Cancer

Bloomberg has decided to chastise the lab-grown meat industry's failure to address cancer concerns — because of the fact that there... aren't... any.

futurism.com

 

[bcuster]

Excellent piece on Forbes summing the scaremongering being generated against meat alternatives:





And there's certainly echoes of this happening here:



And this:

Is The Media Biased Against Plant-Based And Cell-Cultured Meat?

Skepticism is healthy, but much of the alternative protein backlash has been premised on little more than fear mongering and misleadingly presented information.

www.forbes.com

Bloomberg Shredded for Amazingly Stupid Article About Fake Meat and Cancer

Bloomberg has decided to chastise the lab-grown meat industry's failure to address cancer concerns — because of the fact that there... aren't... any.

futurism.com

this should end the debate

 

[butcher]

Lifeless Market For Meatless Meat

The dream of plant-based chicken, pork and beef appears to be withering.

www.forbes.com

Fickle aren't they.......

 

[CNT36]

Lifeless Market For Meatless Meat

The dream of plant-based chicken, pork and beef appears to be withering.

www.forbes.com

Fickle aren't they.......

Whims of the rich. Fucking forbes.

 

[Funky_monks]

Except, of course - I posted up peer reviewed research about the poor nutritional quality of highly processed foods.

Odd, that everyone can agree that the "turkey twizzler" is absolute shite, and yet remove the turkey component of this and replace with TVP and apparently its wonderful stuff.

All the articles about "nutritional quality" say no such thing, they say in some cases it has a similar macronutrient profile. Macronutrients alone do not a food make.

 

[SpookyFrank]

Except, of course - I posted up peer reviewed research about the poor nutritional quality of highly processed foods.

I look forward to you finding out just how natural a broiler chicken is. Or how natural it is to pump cattle full of growth hormones and antibiotics.

Quorn nuggets might have some processing involved, but they're not a direct threat to the ongoing survival of human civilisation. Antibiotic resistance is. Climate change is too. Beef farming is a leading cause of both.

But as long as it's not processed, not post-mortem anyway, then it must be good.

 

[SpookyFrank]

'There's more to food than what it's made of'

...um, like what exactly?

 

[Funky_monks]

'There's more to food than what it's made of'

...um, like what exactly?

Like micronutrients, fibre content and a whole lot of other things.

I posted a study on here about how cheese had significantly better health outcomes than an exact analogue in terms of macronutrient profile, made from milk and milk derivatives (powdered skimmed milk and butter).


Is this going to be a bit like "plants don't need nutrients to grow because.... dinosaurs" again?

 

[WouldBe]

Excellent piece on Forbes summing the scaremongering being generated against meat alternatives:





And there's certainly echoes of this happening here:



And this:

Is The Media Biased Against Plant-Based And Cell-Cultured Meat?

Skepticism is healthy, but much of the alternative protein backlash has been premised on little more than fear mongering and misleadingly presented information.

www.forbes.com

Bloomberg Shredded for Amazingly Stupid Article About Fake Meat and Cancer

Bloomberg has decided to chastise the lab-grown meat industry's failure to address cancer concerns — because of the fact that there... aren't... any.

futurism.com

Re the cancer bit :- for how many decades (or centuries) have humans being eating cured meat before it was found to be carcinogenic?

How long does it take cancer to develop to a point where it's detectable?

In comparison how long have these highly processed plant based foods being around?

Too early to tell yet?

 

[bcuster]

How to Quit Meat -- Without Feeling Like Shit

Stop eating meat—or cut down dramatically. Right now.

www.rollingstone.com

 

[WouldBe]

How to Quit Meat -- Without Feeling Like Shit

Stop eating meat—or cut down dramatically. Right now.

www.rollingstone.com

Not sure how you save 20,000 gallons of water a year by cutting out chicken one day a week.

 

[Funky_monks]

Not sure how you save 20,000 gallons of water a year by cutting out chicken one day a week.

Because its total bollocks, naturally

 

[bcuster]

150 feral cattle to be shot from sky in New Mexico national forest as US Forest Service issues kill order

Aerial shooting of the feral cattle in the Gila Wilderness will take place Thursday through Saturday, the U.S. Forest Service announced.

www.usatoday.com

horrible; corpses left to rot; we've learned little since the bison genocide...

 

[Funky_monks]

Meanwhile, research continues: Grazing experiment shows IPCC's own estimates of climate impacts are off

"A team from Rothamsted have shown urine from animals reared on pasture where white clover grows – a plant commonly sown onto grazing land to reduce the need for additional nitrogen fertiliser – results in just over half the amount of nitrous oxide previously assumed by scientists to be released."

 

[editor]

Re the cancer bit :- for how many decades (or centuries) have humans being eating cured meat before it was found to be carcinogenic?

How long does it take cancer to develop to a point where it's detectable?

In comparison how long have these highly processed plant based foods being around?

Too early to tell yet?

Thank you for providing a perfect example of the totally groundless scaremongering mentioned in the article.