Bye bye MEAT! How will the post-meat future look?

[Funky_monks]

Nice neck of the woods. I've been a couple if times.

Surely that's the problem though isn't it. The chicken shit gets spread on the ground and disolves through the soil and ends up in the river as run off. Its the ferts that have been causing the problems with exessive nutrient levels and pollution. It's not just the soil but what's in it.

Yes, exactly - its poor choice of cropping and/or not spreading fert in the right way. The chicken farms produce the muck, but they aren't spreading it on land, and thus are only indirectly responsible, hence its no wonder they aren't willing to pay for someone else letting it leach into river systems.

But this does't suit the crops - good, livestock - bad narrative.

 

[Funky_monks]

Are they leveraging the fertliser supply or just lucky coincidence?

Maize is hungry, chicken muck is very high N, there are lots of broiler units nearby, ergo haulage will be less.

 

[littlebabyjesus]

Yes, exactly - its poor choice of cropping and/or not spreading fert in the right way. The chicken farms produce the muck, but they aren't spreading it on land, and thus are only indirectly responsible, hence its no wonder they aren't willing to pay for someone else letting it leach into river systems.

But this does't suit the crops - good, livestock - bad narrative.

This the danger though. Everyone says not their fault.

Imo all three should be held responsible - the chicken farmers, the maize farmers and the energy company. If you supply a polluter or buy from a polluter then you're not ensuring that your product is pollution-free. Everyone in the chain bears responsibility.

 

[editor]

If the disgusting intensive chicken farms weren't there in the first place, there'd be no pollution, so let's get rid of them first.

 

[WouldBe]

If the disgusting intensive chicken farms weren't there in the first place, there'd be no pollution, so let's get rid of them first.

They'd just use artificial fertilizer instead and still get run off.

 

[Funky_monks]

They'd just use artificial fertilizer instead and still get run off.

The notion that somehow maize growers wouldn't use any kind of fertiliser if there were no chicken units in the vicinity just illustrates a complete lack of understanding of how cropping works.

 

[butcher]

The notion that somehow maize growers wouldn't use any kind of fertiliser if there were no chicken units in the vicinity just illustrates a complete lack of understanding of how cropping works.

That's townies for 'ee

 

[Funky_monks]

This the danger though. Everyone says not their fault.

Imo all three should be held responsible - the chicken farmers, the maize farmers and the energy company. If you supply a polluter or buy from a polluter then you're not ensuring that your product is pollution-free. Everyone in the chain bears responsibility.

The responsibility is with the growers to ensure that fert is applied at right time, ie when the plant is growing and taking up nutrients, in the correct way, observing rules about water courses and the (moral, because its not required in law) to protect the soil from erosion, possibly by intercropping.

The problem is, if you spread when conditions are good, there's nothing stopping a cold snap followed by rain to come along and halt plant growth (and therefore nutrient uptake) and wash fert away. Equally, if you have to harvest in a wet October, the machinery will fuck the soil, or you abandon your crop and any revenue from it.

 

[friedaweed]

Yes, exactly - its poor choice of cropping and/or not spreading fert in the right way. The chicken farms produce the muck, but they aren't spreading it on land, and thus are only indirectly responsible, hence its no wonder they aren't willing to pay for someone else letting it leach into river systems.

But this does't suit the crops - good, livestock - bad narrative.

Yup all a bit chicken and egg, pardon the pun. I think farming and river systems have been at odds with each other for years, much to the detriment of our native wild fish stocks.

For the record I don't think the chicken farms are liable for cleaning up the rivers but the environment agency needs a more robust, holistic approach to tackling the threat to our freshwater river systems. Chicken farms and other intensive farming practices are contributing to the problem and its not just the NPK rich byproduct that concerns me its other stuff we put in the diet of that livestock that also ends up in the river.

Fish farms are also having a devastating effect on our migratory stocks and along with the climate changes and river pollution some of our stocks of migratory fish are on the brink of extinction.

You might find this an interesting slant on the Environment Agency and how it's failing in it's guardianship of our freshwater rivers and estuaries. In the stuff I read, which is admittedly leaning towards angling, you'll understand why reports on our rivers by the EA are often taken with a pinch of salt. When you allow the polluters to self regulate and monitor run off you may as well throw the towel in.

https://wildfish.org/wp-content/uploads/2022/06/Doing-its-job.stc_.pdf

The Report also shows that:

• the introduction of operator self-monitoring by the Agency ten years ago, whereby dischargers were left to monitor themselves, dramatically reduced the deterrent to would-be polluters and, as the evidence shows, has opened the door to cheating;
• the rate of inspection carried out by Agency staff at regulated sites has reached an extremely low level with some water company sewage treatment works not being inspected over an entire decade.
• the EA inspection rate of English farms, now subject to regulations on avoiding agricultural diffuse pollution, means that farms can only expect to be inspected once every 263 years.
• the number of prosecutions conducted by the EA has dwindled dramatically over time with the rate of decline increasing rapidly since 2012/2013.
• the useful stigma of criminal conviction has largely been removed as a deterrent to would-be polluters and those who would harm the freshwater environment.

Farmers are intrinsically interested in their land and seldom concerned with the biodiversity of the rivers that run through their farmland. Not all of them, but a disproportionate number are polluting rivers without any meaningful deterrent There certainly needs to be a shift in that situation.

 

[Funky_monks]

Yup all a bit chicken and egg, pardon the pun. I think farming and river systems have been at odds with each other for years, much to the detriment of our native wild fish stocks.

For the record I don't think the chicken farms are liable for cleaning up the rivers but the environment agency needs a more robust, holistic approach to tackling the threat to our freshwater river systems. Chicken farms and other intensive farming practices are contributing to the problem and its not just the NPK rich byproduct that concerns me its other stuff we put in the diet of that livestock that also ends up in the river.

Fish farms are also having a devastating effect on our migratory stocks and along with the climate changes and river pollution some of our stocks of migratory fish are on the brink of extinction.

You might find this an interesting slant on the Environment Agency and how it's failing in it's guardianship of our freshwater rivers and estuaries. In the stuff I read, which is admittedly leaning towards angling, you'll understand why reports on our rivers by the EA are often taken with a pinch of salt. When you allow the polluters to self regulate and monitor run off you may as well throw the towel in.

https://wildfish.org/wp-content/uploads/2022/06/Doing-its-job.stc_.pdf

Farmers are intrinsically interested in their land and seldom concerned with the biodiversity of the rivers that run through their farmland. Not all of them, but a disproportionate number are polluting rivers without any meaningful deterrent There certainly needs to be a shift in that situation.

For what it's worth, I think wholecropping maize to cart off to an AD plant is bonkers - I know why they do it, its high starch and decomposes at a steady rate, giving a steady stream of gas, but that isn't really what AD plants were designed for, they should be generating gas from waste as opposed to growing crops specifically for them.

Not sure what you mean by "stuff we put in diets", we don't add hormones here (illegal) or elsewhere in the EU and the supermarkets (ergo red tractor) are quite hot on reducing antibiotic use. Ive been to a feed mill that is owned by Avara, nothing dodge going in that I could see in that regard.

I'd much rather see the orchards and the permanent pasture back, much more biodiverse. We'd need to drink more cider though.

Farmers used to be fined subs if in breach, but since they are going (apart from enviro schemes), that's unlikely to mean much.

The problem with having an industry where the average age is 60 something is you get people unwilling to change, but also having an idea of what farming is supposed to be that isn't really current (ie producing as much as possible).


But,it's important to know how systems actually work before you critique them, it also helps offer meaningful solutions.

Obviously the elephant in the room re: the Wye is sewage works. Farming, especially farming practices that are controversial like broiler production provide good distraction fodder away from them. We should be renationalising and controlling sewage treatment as a matter of priority.

 

[friedaweed]

For what it's worth, I think wholecropping maize to cart off to an AD plant is bonkers - I know why they do it, its high starch and decomposes at a steady rate, giving a steady stream of gas, but that isn't really what AD plants were designed for, they should be generating gas from waste as opposed to growing crops specifically for them.

Not sure what you mean by "stuff we put in diets", we don't add hormones here (illegal) or elsewhere in the EU and the supermarkets (ergo red tractor) are quite hot on reducing antibiotic use. Ive been to a feed mill that is owned by Avara, nothing dodge going in that I could see in that regard.

I'd much rather see the orchards and the permanent pasture back, much more biodiverse. We'd need to drink more cider though.

Farmers used to be fined subs if in breach, but since they are going (apart from enviro schemes), that's unlikely to mean much.

The problem with having an industry where the average age is 60 something is you get people unwilling to change, but also having an idea of what farming is supposed to be that isn't really current (ie producing as much as possible).


But,it's important to know how systems actually work before you critique them, it also helps offer meaningful solutions.

Obviously the elephant in the room re: the Wye is sewage works. Farming, especially farming practices that are controversial like broiler production provide good distraction fodder away from them. We should be renationalising and controlling sewage treatment as a matter of priority.

Thanks, appreciate the reply.

Yes sewage is a big part of the problem but It's just one part of the problem and yes I agree that it does need bringing back into a system that can be centrally modernised with its' environmental impact at the heart of any future redevelopment. Clearly the system we have is fucked.

I spend a bit of time chatting to a couple of local farmers now I'm in the sticks and yes they're all old giffers. Ken the one who supplies me with logs loves a good chinwag. He must be pushing 70. He'd recently been to Benidorm on holiday, that was a two hour tale I'll never get the time back for.

I was referring to antibiotics but also the stuff like feed supplements. It's all going in the ground with their shit. Off on a completely different tangent one of the other things I've always found interesting is the affect of oestrogens getting into the water course as well.

 

[Funky_monks]

Thanks, appreciate the reply.

Yes sewage is a big part of the problem but It's just one part of the problem and yes I agree that it does need bringing back into a system that can be centrally modernised with its' environmental impact at the heart of any future redevelopment. Clearly the system we have is fucked.

I spend a bit of time chatting to a couple of local farmers now I'm in the sticks and yes they're all old giffers. Ken the one who supplies me with logs loves a good chinwag. He must be pushing 70. He'd recently been to Benidorm on holiday, that was a two hour tale I'll never get the time back for.

I was referring to antibiotics but also the stuff like feed supplements. It's all going in the ground with their shit. Off on a completely different tangent one of the other things I've always found interesting is the affect of oestrogens getting into the water course as well.

Chicken get given oregano and in some cases garlic powder as a supplement. Both have been shown to be antimicrobial.

Their extreme growth rate is genetics rather than anything else.

I believe the main culprit for oestrogen is the contraceptive pill (or, not properly treating sewage containing urine with oestrogen in). Been a while but my Batchelors degree was Marine and Freshwater biology.

You can literally change the sex of fish using hormone solutions, it's how trout and salmon farming produces all females

 

[gentlegreen]

For those who understand French or are happy to use a translator ...

French vegans are heavily invested in fake meat and reproducing traditional meals - somewhat unsettling for someone like me who has moved to a diet based on nutrient density and with no identifiable recipes or even focus ...
I even somewhat reject tofu and seitan because it involves throwing away the carbs ...
.. though I suppose the waste products might at least actually be usable as compost ...

Pour un véganisme populaire | Facebook

Ce groupe est un lieu d'échange pour promouvoir le véganisme au sein de la société et démontrer par la pratique qu'il est accessible à tous et toutes, contrairement à l'image du véganisme encore trop...

www.facebook.com

 

[Hollis]

Have you tried tempeh as an alternative to tofu? It's a bit more expensive but very tasty and high in protein. I get some from Sainsbury about £3 for 198 grams.

Completely agree on this - I'm afraid Tofu does very little for me - tempeh on the other hand is fine - also find jackfruit a good substitute.

 

[editor]

Look at these awful, unnatural, cruel pig factories in Spain.

The buildings are home to 3,900 sows, who produce approximately 100,000 piglets a year.

It’s a transformation playing out across rural Spain, with close to half of the pork industry located in municipalities with a population below 5,000. In 2021, the country of 47 million people slaughtered 58 million pigs – up 40% from a decade earlier – turning Spain into Europe’s largest pork meat producer

The presence of nitrates has been linked to the spread of manure by the farm, a correlation found across Spain. In the north-eastern region of Aragón, home to roughly seven pigs for every inhabitant, a recent investigation found that nearly 50 municipalities had recorded dangerously high levels of nitrates in their drinking water at some point between 2016 and 2020.

‘We’re being invaded by pigs’: Spain’s pork revolution faces backlash

The country’s transformation into one of the world’s biggest pork producers is helping to accelerate rural depopulation, claim opponents of the industry

www.theguardian.com

 

[editor]

Let's see what the Good Food Institute says about meat vs plant based meat:

• Plant-based meat uses 47 percent–99 percent less land than conventional meat (m2-yr-land/kg-meat).
• Plant-based meat emits 30%–90% less greenhouse gas than conventional meat (kg-CO2-eq/kg-meat).
• Plant-based meat uses 72%–99% less water than conventional meat (l-water/kg-meat).
• Plant-based meat causes 51%–91% less aquatic nutrient pollution than conventional meat (g-PO43-eq/kg-meat).

Environmental impacts of alternative proteins | GFI

Explore the environmental advantages of alternative proteins in diversifying the global food supply. With minimal land and water use, lower GHG emissions, and reduced pollutants, investing in alternative proteins ensures a sustainable and secure food future.

gfi.org

 

[DaphneM]

In 2021, Good Foods Institute employees reported that they were scared to openly disagree with their seniors due to a fear of retaliation. For this reason, Animal Charity Evaluators removed GFI from its "top charity" list for one year, reinstating it in 2022.[39][40][7]

 

[friedaweed]

I'm sure this has probably been mentioned before but why are they calling it plant based meat?

It's not meat so why give it that label?

Vegan cheese isn't cheese.
Vegetarian sausages aren't sausages.
Soya milk isn't milk.
Vegetarian bacon rashers is pure comely gold.

What is it about the marketing towards vegetarians and vegans that has to make them believe that they are still eating a produce by name but it's been specially redesigned just for them and their diet?

If I stopped eating meat I wouldn't want to eat anything called meat. If I gave up eating sausages I wouldn't need Linda McCartney to mix me up something that enabled me to pretend I was still eating something I'd already committed to giving up.

Why don't they just call it what it is. Plant based processed food made to look like something it's not "so you dont feel like you've totally given it up."

Just a thought.

 

[JimW]

Vegetarian sausages aren't sausages.

Just checked the etymology and there's nothing about sausage that implies meat, salt apparently. So ner.
Milk has already a long history of being used for other things that what come out a mammal's teats too, see milk of the poppy in Game of Thrones for a definitive cite.
Cheese you can keep

 

[CNT36]

I'm sure this has probably been mentioned before but why are they calling it plant based meat?

It's not meat so why give it that label?

It has several names. Could you show me some packaging or an advert that uses that term? A very quick Google of popular lines (ones I've had) doesn't seem to find anything refering to it as that.

 

[friedaweed]

Just checked the etymology and there's nothing about sausage that implies meat, salt apparently. So ner.
Milk has already a long history of being used for other things that what come out a mammal's teats too, see milk of the poppy in Game of Thrones for a definitive cite.
Cheese you can keep

You do know game of thrones was fictional don't you?

Everyone knows what a sausage is. Linda Macs produce is made to look and taste like meat. WHY? This new processed stuff is designed to look, taste as well as called meat. Why?

You can argue about the semantics but I'm asking specifically about the marketing and why there has to be imitative produce for something the person has decided not to eat any more.

I just don't get it.

 

[platinumsage]

My iPad isn't a tablet i.e. a slab of stone or wood on which an inscription may be carved.

 

[friedaweed]

It has several names. Could you show me some packaging or an advert that uses that term? A very quick Google of popular lines (ones I've had) doesn't seem to find anything refering to it as that.

Scroll up the thread. Two posts above mine.

The term is used 7 times in one post.

I don't have any packaging. I eat proper meat.

 

[JimW]

You do know game of thrones was fictional don't you?

Everyone knows what a sausage is. Linda Macs produce is made to look and taste like meat. WHY? This new processed stuff is designed to look, taste as well as called meat. Why?

You can argue about the semantics but I'm asking specifically about the marketing and why there has to be imitative produce for something the person has decided not to eat any more.

I just don't get it.

Think in them two cases it just helps new adopters know where to use them. Not been one for fake meat much myself but do like a big sausage. Sometimes used to get called rissoles which is also unfortunate.
In Chinese soymilk uses a completely different word to dairy milk, suppose being far more common in Han diets for so long.

 

[friedaweed]

My iPad isn't a tablet i.e. a slab of stone or wood on which an inscription may be carved.

My point exactly.

For some reason I've always thought your board name was platinumsausage.

 

[friedaweed]

Think in them two cases it just helps new adopters know where to use them. Not been one for fake meat much myself but do like a big sausage. Sometimes used to get called rissoles which is also unfortunate.
In Chinese soymilk uses a completely different word to dairy milk, suppose being far more common in Han diets for so long.

Rissoles are burgers in this neck of the woods.

 

[CNT36]

Scroll up the thread. Two posts above mine.

The term is used 7 times in one post.

I don't have any packaging. I eat proper meat.

Why do you call it proper meat?

 

[kabbes]

A Glamorgan sausage has been called a Glamorgan sausage since at least the 1850s. I’m fine with the idea that a “sausage” is generically a cylindrical minced up bunch of savoury stuff, meat or otherwise. (While I’m at it, I’m similarly ok with the idea that a “burger” is generically a flat disc of savoury stuff designed to go in a bun).

I can’t see the point in labelling vegetarian food as “bacon” or other terms that specifically refer to cuts and cooking styles of meat. But, equally, I don’t care about it. Words drift, it’s fine.

 

[CNT36]

Scroll up the thread. Two posts above mine.

The term is used 7 times in one post.

I don't have any packaging. I eat proper meat.

However you were "asking specifically about the marketing" and that post isn't marketing as such.

why there has to be imitative produce for something the person has decided not to eat any more?

Those products aren't only for people who don't eat meat anymore. My mum and sister have both eaten and cooked Quorn for about 25 years preferring it to minced beef in Spaghetti bolognase, chilli and lasagne. Neither is or has any intention of becoming a vegetarian. They are not unique in this.

I don't know why as someone who eats meat and as a result doesn't indulge in these items you give much of a fuck what they are called.

 

[editor]

I'm sure this has probably been mentioned before but why are they calling it plant based meat?

It's not meat so why give it that label?

Vegan cheese isn't cheese.
Vegetarian sausages aren't sausages.
Soya milk isn't milk.
Vegetarian bacon rashers is pure comely gold.

What is it about the marketing towards vegetarians and vegans that has to make them believe that they are still eating a produce by name but it's been specially redesigned just for them and their diet?

If I stopped eating meat I wouldn't want to eat anything called meat. If I gave up eating sausages I wouldn't need Linda McCartney to mix me up something that enabled me to pretend I was still eating something I'd already committed to giving up.

Why don't they just call it what it is. Plant based processed food made to look like something it's not "so you dont feel like you've totally given it up."

Just a thought.

The same reason that when people want to give up smoking they often use e-cigs - so they're familiar to what they're used to.

Can't see why that's so difficult a concept for you to understand.