Bye bye MEAT! How will the post-meat future look?

[Funky_monks]

Just watched the film Cow. I would recommend it.

A few comments fwiw. The only bit I find at all troubling in the context of this thread is the separation of the cows from their calves. Of course they suffer when that happens. This was a farm on which they prevent calves from suckling. I'd be interested to compare to how things work on farms where they don't do that. Such farms are not widespread, but they do exist - it is a possible way to do it. But it's a strength of the film that this is a typical dairy farm, seemingly well run by people who have a certain affection for their animals.

It's certainly possible:
Home

Yields would be lower though, it kind of depends on demand.

I don't know if the farm on the film milks with a parlour or robots, robots certainly seem a more ethical way to do it (although I'm not bothered with conventional twice a day milking, but on demand seems even better) .

 

[littlebabyjesus]

It's certainly possible:
Home

Yields would be lower though, it kind of depends on demand.

I don't know if the farm on the film milks with a parlour or robots, robots certainly seem a more ethical way to do it (although I'm not bothered with conventional twice a day milking, but on demand seems even better) .

Not robots. Circular parlour bit like this one. Not in any way as clean as this one, though. I've been on dairy farms. They're never this clean.

Another choice by the filmmaker is the amount of time spent looking at milking, mating, giving birth, vet exams, etc, while the cows are inside. The only time the camera lingers on the cow eating or just sitting there among the herd chewing the cud is when the cows are in the fields. Of course, they spend most of their time when inside doing this as well, but that is barely shown. It is the cows in the background who are seen doing it while Luma is going through her various difficulties. This accentuates the contrast between the relative idyll of being in the field and the daily grind of being in the shed.

I'm sure others will draw different conclusions from the film Cow, but other than the separation from the calves, which is rough, I don't think it portrayed the life of a dairy cow as one of unremitting misery. Summer is better than winter, for sure, but that's not so surprising.

 

[Funky_monks]

Not robots. Circular parlour bit like this one. Not in any way as clean as this one, though. I've been on dairy farms. They're never this clean.

Another choice by the filmmaker is the amount of time spent looking at milking, mating, giving birth, vet exams, etc, while the cows are inside. The only time the camera lingers on the cow eating or just sitting there among the herd chewing the cud is when the cows are in the fields. Of course, they spend most of their time when inside doing this as well, but that is barely shown. It is the cows in the background who are seen doing it while Luma is going through her various difficulties. This accentuates the contrast between the relative idyll of being in the field and the daily grind of being in the shed.

I'm sure others will draw different conclusions from the film Cow, but other than the separation from the calves, which is rough, I don't think it portrayed the life of a dairy cow as one of unremitting misery. Summer is better than winter, for sure, but that's not so surprising.

Ah, rotary parlour.
No, won't be as clean as that but will need to be cleaned and disinfected between milkings.
Did it have cow brushes?
Cows spend most of their time eating, lying down or using the brush in my experience.
What was down in the cubicles? Sand?

 

[littlebabyjesus]

Ah, rotary parlour.
No, won't be as clean as that but will need to be cleaned and disinfected between milkings.
Did it have cow brushes?
Cows spend most of their time eating, lying down or using the brush in my experience.
What was down in the cubicles? Sand?

I don't know, sorry.

They showed the teats being cleaned by hand before putting the suckers on. It may well have shown a cow brush, but I might not recognise one.

 

[Funky_monks]

I don't know, sorry.

They showed the teats being cleaned by hand before putting the suckers on. It may well have shown a cow brush, but I might not recognise one.

Cow brushes are placed around the shed, they often have motors attached which make them rotate - cows like them and go and stand against them from time to time. I guess it reproduces scratching themselves against a tree or similar.

 

[littlebabyjesus]

Ok. I don't remember seeing anything like that. For the shots inside, something was always happening pretty much in terms of birth, milking, etc. The film only dwells on 'downtime' when the cows are outside. And while I think it's a good film and would recommend watching, that is a criticism that I would have of it. It's quite manipulative in certain respects.

ETA:

I was curious to see what reviews had to say about Cow. There's a fair bit of rubbish in some of them, for instance this from the Guardian:

Arnold, however, has no desire to prettify her subject matter. The film is shot with handheld urgency, the lens positioned at udder and eye level. She forces us to confront the grinding cycle of life for a dairy cow, the dull buzz of strip lights and the murky gloom in the milking sheds. Perhaps most heartbreaking is the moment of skittish joy when the cows are released into pastures in spring – tellingly, it’s a good 45 minutes into the film before we even glimpse a blade of grass.

Cow review – Andrea Arnold’s deeply moving chronicle of the life of a dairy cow

Does the reviewer not understand how films are made? The first two sentences are fine, but then it just descends into nonsense. It's 45 minutes into the film before we even glimpse a blade of grass because the filmmaker chose to make it that way. And the cycle of life for a dairy cow is shown as grinding in large part because the filmmaker leaves out the hours spent in between the bits of action being shown. Surely this is basic stuff a professional film critic ought to know.

It's an affecting film alright. I've been thinking about it more today, hence the posts, but one thing that is absent from the film is a sense of the relationships between the cows. Cows are social animals with hierarchies. Individual cows have selective friendships with other cows in the herd. I think Arnold may have missed something important here. In following just one cow so closely, 'the lens positioned at udder and eye level', she has possibly missed out a big part of that cow's life, namely the other cows around her.

 

[Saunders]

If you're not going to eat it what would be the point in killing it if you could?

Bastards ate all my runner bean plants.
They are a dreadful pest, make holes in fields and hedges etc. I personally do not want to kill them and can cope with the damage they do but occasionally I see one with myxi, the dog might injure one and I ought to put it out of its misery, whatever. The observation I was trying to make, not very well obviously, was that I would find it very difficult to turn the dead rabbit into meat and then eat it. And that I think that I’m not uncommon in being perfectly comfortable with the idea that meat comes from a dead animal in theory, but would struggle to put that process into practice myself.
Which is of course rather hypocritical.

 

[butcher]

editor keeps pointing out that he is not Vegan, still wondering what cruelty free products he makes use of....

 

[butcher]

Thread seems very quiet since I asked a simple question

 

[littlebabyjesus]

Maybe we could place a moratorium on gotchas? From all sides.

Accept that none of us are perfect and while some of us can do better, slinging mud isn't going to help. Also accept that it's not as simple as looking just at individual choices. Choices are constrained - by economics, culture, time, knowledge, mental health, all kinds of things. In any other field of politics, discussion on here that didn't acknowledge this would be shouted down as liberal nonsense.

To really tackle the question of how we can produce sustainable agricultural systems, we need to look at collective action, systems change and solidarity with those within the system who would carry out those changes. And there is a potential virtuous circle here. More sustainable, integrated systems very often fit naturally with higher animal welfare. Industrialised farming, whether it involves factory-farmed animals or monoculture crops, is both unethical and unsustainable. Is that a point of consensus from which we can build?

 

[butcher]

Maybe we could place a moratorium on gotchas? From all sides.

Accept that none of us are perfect and while some of us can do better, slinging mud isn't going to help. Also accept that it's not as simple as looking just at individual choices. Choices are constrained - by economics, culture, time, knowledge, mental health, all kinds of things. In any other field of politics, discussion on here that didn't acknowledge this would be shouted down as liberal nonsense.

To really tackle the question of how we can produce sustainable agricultural systems, we need to look at collective action, systems change and solidarity with those within the system who would carry out those changes. And there is a potential virtuous circle here. More sustainable, integrated systems very often fit naturally with higher animal welfare. Industrialised farming, whether it involves factory-farmed animals or monoculture crops, is both unethical and unsustainable. Is that a point of consensus from which we can build?

Most of us have been but if someone is taking a moral high ground then perhaps it needs questioning.

If you are not totally committed vegan (and perhaps not even then) you benefit from the present system, so if you are finger wagging at others do not be surprised if your own values are questioned.


Or are you saying let's all be hypocrites (rhetorical)? FWIW I like your posts and contributions to this thread, but would find it highly amusing if someone were to harangue others while still financially supporting a system they profess to despise.

Finally, I totally agree that Industrialised farming, whether it involves factory-farmed animals or monoculture crops, is both unethical and unsustainable.


My position has always been that overpopulation and under funding of infrastructural development are the big problems, everything else is a sticking plaster on an amputation.

 

[Funky_monks]

Maybe we could place a moratorium on gotchas? From all sides.

Accept that none of us are perfect and while some of us can do better, slinging mud isn't going to help. Also accept that it's not as simple as looking just at individual choices. Choices are constrained - by economics, culture, time, knowledge, mental health, all kinds of things. In any other field of politics, discussion on here that didn't acknowledge this would be shouted down as liberal nonsense.

To really tackle the question of how we can produce sustainable agricultural systems, we need to look at collective action, systems change and solidarity with those within the system who would carry out those changes. And there is a potential virtuous circle here. More sustainable, integrated systems very often fit naturally with higher animal welfare. Industrialised farming, whether it involves factory-farmed animals or monoculture crops, is both unethical and unsustainable. Is that a point of consensus from which we can build?

Honestly, I don't think this thread was started for that.
I've been quite critical of factory farming throughout, but it seems to matter not.
There are people out there trying (and succeeding) to portray "the meat industry" as a small collection of massive multinationals, and make parallels to the fossil fuel industry/the tobacco industry.
Whilst both analogies are full of holes, the lack of understanding of farming systems amongst the general population (through no fault of their own), means that in some cases this sticks and crates zealots (as we have seen), with a kind of religious evangelism on the subject.

I've attempted to weigh in on the issues facing Agriculture and how I feel it needs to change, but this is brushed aside wholesale as "nonsense" by people who have neither looked at research in any depth or produced any food.

I fully expect a random source dump in order to attempt to stymie any real discussion to be along shortly.

 

[butcher]

I just want to know if Ed is vegan or not, and if not how he sources non-vegan products considering his fondness of pointing the finger of self-righteousness at others.

ETA mainly as I have been a target of such fingerwaggery (it is a bit like that other word whatabouterry but the other direction)

 

[CNT36]

editor keeps pointing out that he is not Vegan, still wondering what cruelty free products he makes use of....

TBF Editor hasn't posted on this thread since Friday or at all since early Saturday morning.
My question is ahead of yours anyway...

 

[Funky_monks]

Finally, I totally agree that Industrialised farming, whether it involves factory-farmed animals or monoculture crops, is both unethical and unsustainable.

I guess the issue is that 50% of the meat we eat is poultry and 80% of the meat eaten in the UK is pig & poultry.
Although 40% of our pork is outdoor reared, you can see how its easy to make the assertion that "most of the meat we eat is factory farmed".

If you ate lamb and beef only, you'd almost always avoid factory farmed food without trying.

 

[Jeff Robinson]

Just watched the film Cow. I would recommend it.

A few comments fwiw. The only bit I find at all troubling in the context of this thread is the separation of the cows from their calves. Of course they suffer when that happens. This was a farm on which they prevent calves from suckling. I'd be interested to compare to how things work on farms where they don't do that. Such farms are not widespread, but they do exist - it is a possible way to do it. But it's a strength of the film that this is a typical dairy farm, seemingly well run by people who have a certain affection for their animals.

The filmmaker Andrea Arnold is clearly making lots of choices here. She portrays Luma more than once as seemingly the only cow in a big circle being milked that is mooing and agitated. The cows generally, Luma included, aren't bothered at all about being milked. They need to be milked after all. Luma mooing at the camera near the start is supposed to represent her separation anxiety from a calf, but tbh it could just as easily be agitation at having a camera shoved in her face. So there's a fair bit of narrative construction going on here. I don't have a problem with that, especially if the filmmaker thinks this is the best way to portray the underlying truth of a situation, which she may very well have done. And the comment from the farmer near the end that Luma is becoming more protective of her calves as she gets old is revealing. She is remembering what happened last year and the year before, and she doesn't like it.

The film captures certain moments very well. The delight among the cows at being allowed out into the fields is very well captured. Of course being inside sheds is nowhere near as pleasurable for the cows, although presumably being out in a field in winter with little grass and freezing cold wouldn't be much fun either. Luma does look knackered by the end. She's had six calves at this point so is around eight years old, maybe nine, quite old for a dairy cow but not that old for a wild bovine. But those are big fuck off udders by that point. She's made a lot of milk in that lifetime.

Thanks for watching it and for your thoughts. I agree that the strength of the film comes from its portrayal of a standard dairy farm - and one in which the farmers are presumably on best behaviour. This means the viewer has to confront the practical realities of the dairy industry. I found the scenes of mother-calve separation more than 'troubling' though, I found them heart-breaking. As you say, the fact that the farmers observe that she gets more protective with older age suggests she is aware of all this, she remembers the past and worries about it repeating in the future. To subject any mammal to such an emotionally painful life cycle is just staggeringly cruel.

I'd also use a stronger word than 'knackered' to describe Luma at the end of her life - she looked like a physically and emotionally broken being, a mere husk of an animal and her swollen udders looked incredibly painful. This for me touched on one of the other inherent cruelties of the dairy industry - the selective breeding practices that turn the bodies of these animals against themselves. No wonder 'milk' is a synonym for exploit! I guess I found it much more horrifying portrayal than you did.

 

[Calamity1971]

Thanks for watching it and for your thoughts. I agree that the strength of the film comes from its portrayal of a standard dairy farm - and one in which the farmers are presumably on best behaviour. This means the viewer has to confront the practical realities of the dairy industry. I found the scenes of mother-calve separation more than 'troubling' though, I found them heart-breaking. As you say, the fact that the farmers observe that she gets more protective with older age suggests she is aware of all this, she remembers the past and worries about it repeating in the future. To subject any mammal to such an emotionally painful life cycle is just staggeringly cruel.

I'd also use a stronger word than 'knackered' to describe Luma at the end of her life - she looked like a physically and emotionally broken being, a mere husk of an animal and her swollen udders looked incredibly painful. This for me touched on one of the other inherent cruelties of the dairy industry - the selective breeding practices that turn the bodies of these animals against themselves. No wonder 'milk' is a synonym for exploit! I guess I found it much more horrifying portrayal than you did.

Living semi rural I've heard the cries when mother and calf are separated, and It's quite a distance away as well! My friends garden backs onto a field where they breed cows, the farmer gives her the nod when they're going to be separated from the calves and she goes out for the day. She was inconsolable when she first witnessed it.

 

[bcuster]

Living semi rural I've heard the cries when mother and calf are separated, and It's quite a distance away as well! My friends garden backs onto a field where they breed cows, the farmer gives her the nod when they're going to be separated from the calves and she goes out for the day. She was inconsolable when she first witnessed it.

Something is very wrong, cruel & unethical about this...

 

[CNT36]

Living semi rural I've heard the cries when mother and calf are separated, and It's quite a distance away as well! My friends garden backs onto a field where they breed cows, the farmer gives her the nod when they're going to be separated from the calves and she goes out for the day. She was inconsolable when she first witnessed it.

The wife remembers lying awake listening to the cries and found it upsetting.

 

[littlebabyjesus]

Point of info. Cow has popped up on BBC iPlayer this week.

 

[editor]

Not robots. Circular parlour bit like this one. Not in any way as clean as this one, though. I've been on dairy farms. They're never this clean.

Another choice by the filmmaker is the amount of time spent looking at milking, mating, giving birth, vet exams, etc, while the cows are inside. The only time the camera lingers on the cow eating or just sitting there among the herd chewing the cud is when the cows are in the fields. Of course, they spend most of their time when inside doing this as well, but that is barely shown. It is the cows in the background who are seen doing it while Luma is going through her various difficulties. This accentuates the contrast between the relative idyll of being in the field and the daily grind of being in the shed.

I'm sure others will draw different conclusions from the film Cow, but other than the separation from the calves, which is rough, I don't think it portrayed the life of a dairy cow as one of unremitting misery. Summer is better than winter, for sure, but that's not so surprising.

It's hard to imagine anything more unnatural for a cow than to be chained into a big metal turntable, all facing each other.

 

[editor]

Thread seems very quiet since I asked a simple question

Or maybe I've been busy and didn't see your oh-so-important fucking question which I've already answered multiple times throughout this long thread. See 'search thread' box above and fill your boots,

 

[butcher]

Or maybe I've been busy and didn't see your oh-so-important fucking question which I've already answered multiple times throughout this long thread. See 'search thread' box above and fill your boots,

 

[butcher]

14 pages of your comments Ed and at no point, apart from saying you are not vegan, do you say what animal products you do use.

If you don't believe me use the search box.

 

[ElizabethofYork]

14 pages of your comments Ed and at no point, apart from saying you are not vegan, do you say what animal products you do use.

If you don't believe me use the search box.

What do you mean? Of course he's vegan.

 

[butcher]

What do you mean? Of course he's vegan.

Post in thread 'Bye bye MEAT! How will the post-meat future look?' Bye bye MEAT! How will the post-meat future look?

 

[Jeff Robinson]

The wife remembers lying awake listening to the cries and found it upsetting.

This is a quote from the director about an audience reaction to the film at a screening:

“We had a screening at the London film festival. People were crying, one person fainted, somebody was sick, somebody had a panic attack. Somebody said to me it made them think women’s bodies are not their own; somebody said ‘It makes me think of infertility and how hard I’ve tried for a baby’; somebody said ‘It’s made me feel about my mother and the relationship we’ve never had’; somebody talked about the relationship with a mother she did have, and somebody said it made them think about how our lives are managed.”

 

[editor]

What do you mean? Of course he's vegan.

Of course you can quickly show me all the times I've claimed to be, then?

 

[ElizabethofYork]

Of course you can quickly show me all the times I've claimed to be, then?

Sorry - I just assumed you were. I got it wrong.

 

[DaphneM]

This is a quote from the director about an audience reaction to the film at a screening:

“We had a screening at the London film festival. People were crying, one person fainted, somebody was sick, somebody had a panic attack. Somebody said to me it made them think women’s bodies are not their own; somebody said ‘It makes me think of infertility and how hard I’ve tried for a baby’; somebody said ‘It’s made me feel about my mother and the relationship we’ve never had’; somebody talked about the relationship with a mother she did have, and somebody said it made them think about how our lives are managed.”

that really belongs in Pseuds Corner...