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Bye bye MEAT! How will the post-meat future look?

How reluctant are you to give up your meat habit?


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Lamb isn't produced in factory farms. Most beef in the UK isn't either, although as we know, US-style feedlot farming has arrived here. But I'm pretty sure that everyone active on this thread is opposed to that development.
Finishing beef in lots has always happened to some extent, I'm not sure it's quite as controversial as is made out - traditionally "barley beef" - tends to be in winter when it'd be hard for the animals to gain fat/weight outdoors (breed notwithstanding, you could finish native breeds outside quite easily)
 
You tell me, you are the one who makes such positive assertions.......
Which supermarket, which product, like for like?
How do you compare with Iceland's prices? Or any one of the zillions of awful fast food chicken/kebab outlets?
 
I been watching this thread for ages and though i completely agree that we need to eat less meat no one has proposed any feasible ways to get from one to the other, you all seem to be going round and round in circles
....i work in a medium sized supermarket and i can tell you it isn't slowing down as of yet....we sell massive amounts of meat...in fact it's so wanted that our 'christmas' large joints are targeted by our local shoplifters
 
I been watching this thread for ages and though i completely agree that we need to eat less meat no one has proposed any feasible ways to get from one to the other, you all seem to be going round and round in circles
....i work in a medium sized supermarket and i can tell you it isn't slowing down as of yet....we sell massive amounts of meat...in fact it's so wanted that our 'christmas' large joints are targeted by our local shoplifters
can you tell us anything about the exorbitant pricing of meat alternatives eg barley, lentils, tofu, etc
 
How do you compare with Iceland's prices? Or any one of the zillions of awful fast food chicken/kebab outlets?
I'm genuinely at a loss as to what point you think you're making now.

There are three strands to this, which keep getting tangled up.

First, there is the basic morality of farming animals and eating meat. Should we be doing this at all? Should those who think it's wrong be telling others that they are wrong to participate?

Second, linked, there is animal welfare and the ethics of intensive animal farming of various kinds. Should we be doing this at all? Should those who think it's wrong be telling others that they are wrong to participate?

And then third, there are the arguments to do with sustainability, boidiversity, potentially climate-changing effects, and social justice for producers and consumers. In contrast to the first two strands, which potentially have simple answers depending on your beliefs, this last one is complex and wide-ranging. It's very certainly not as simple as plants good animals bad for a whole host of reasons to do with monocultures, biodiversity, soils, the widespread use of fertilisers and pesticides made using oil, etc, etc.

Our positions on the first two strands are of course going to influence what we think the last strand should be. But this last strand is essentially separate from the other two. Animal farming can be done in sustainable ways. Plant farming can be done in unsustainable ways. And many of the sustainable methods of doing one involve integration with the other.

It would be helpful if we were able to keep a clear head as to which bit of this we're addressing in our posts. Full-frontal triple-strand arguments don't work.
 
I been watching this thread for ages and though i completely agree that we need to eat less meat no one has proposed any feasible ways to get from one to the other, you all seem to be going round and round in circles
....i work in a medium sized supermarket and i can tell you it isn't slowing down as of yet....we sell massive amounts of meat...in fact it's so wanted that our 'christmas' large joints are targeted by our local shoplifters
Makes you wonder why the gang here put so much effort and time into dissing veganism if it's so insignificant eh!
 
Where did i say it was insignificant ?
Not saying you did, I appreciate what you're saying and acknowledge it, Veganism is still relatively tiny

Funny then that it lives rent free in many people's heads and some here in particular just won't stop attacking/rubbishing it
I know some of it is being done by a few just to attack and troll editor but the fragility by some if hilarious!
 
Not saying you did, I appreciate what you're saying and acknowledge it, Veganism is still relatively tiny

Funny then that it lives rent free in many people's heads and some here in particular just won't stop attacking/rubbishing it
I know some of it is being done by a few just to attack and troll editor but the fragility by some if hilarious!
That's your take away from this?

:D:thumbs:
 
Ah, so it's all about 'educating people' not to buy the affordable factory farmed slop that's served up in fast food restaurants across the land but to somehow find more money to buy flesh from animals that have been slaughtered in nicer conditions.

This is where I got my meat yesterday on the way up to the highlands. Not a niche drop in the ocean. An educated choice of preferring to buy better and less.

I saw it an thought of you.

Maybe you should stand outside McDonalds then and enlighten people. How will people change if they don't know the horrors that you know.

20221201_160311.jpg
 
On BBC 2 at 22:30 this Sunday, Andrea Arnold's multiple award-winning documentary 'Cow' - an unflinching look at British dairy farming:


Unlike Panorama's expose of brutal and sadistic torture of dairy cows on British farms, 'Cow' is not undercover footage, it is all filmed with the consent of the farmers. It doesn't document illegal activity, but routine dairy industry practices. Would appreciate if any people on this thread who think the dairy industry should continue to exist could watch it and then share their thoughts.
 
Maybe you should stand outside McDonalds then and enlighten people. How will people change if they don't know the horrors that you know.
Ironically, McDonald's is far from the worst place to buy meat. Their beef is British/Irish, their pork is outdoor-bred - not free range but in the top 40% for welfare - and their eggs are free-range.

Buying better-welfare meat isn't straightforward and it's not just a matter of price. You can buy high-end products like parma ham or chorizo and the animal welfare standards may well be below those of a McDonald's sausage.
 
On BBC 2 at 22:30 this Sunday, Andrea Arnold's multiple award-winning documentary 'Cow' - an unflinching look at British dairy farming:


Unlike Panorama's expose of brutal and sadistic torture of dairy cows on British farms, 'Cow' is not undercover footage, it is all filmed with the consent of the farmers. It doesn't document illegal activity, but routine dairy industry practices. Would appreciate if any people on this thread who think the dairy industry should continue to exist could watch it and then share their thoughts.
I will find this here and watch it
 
This is where I got my meat yesterday on the way up to the highlands. Not a niche drop in the ocean. An educated choice of preferring to buy better and less.

I saw it an thought of you.

Maybe you should stand outside McDonalds then and enlighten people. How will people change if they don't know the horrors that you know.

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I'm sure it's all lovely for you but it's absolutely niche in the grand scheme of overall meat sales.
What percentage of meat consumed un the UK comes from places like this do you think?
 
I'm sure it's all lovely for you but it's absolutely niche in the grand scheme of overall meat sales.
What percentage of meat consumed un the UK comes from places like this do you think?

This is all very confusing. You've told people off before for focusing on systems and societies and downplaying the role of consumer choice in changing those systems, but now you are poo-pooing the idea of consumer choice driving change in systems.

You yourself celebrate the fact that veganism is no longer niche. What is niche in one era can become mainstream in the next, as you have repeatedly pointed out.
 
This is all very confusing. You've told people off before for focusing on systems and societies and downplaying the role of consumer choice in changing those systems, but now you are poo-pooing the idea of consumer choice driving change in systems.

You yourself celebrate the fact that veganism is no longer niche. What is niche in one era can become mainstream in the next, as you have repeatedly pointed out.
So you actually believe that people are going to stop eating factory farmed slop en masse and go for the more expensive 'nice' stuff?

So what evidence do you have for this huge shift in consumer habits? Because from where I'm sitting I'm just seeing more and more factory farms being built.
 
So you actually believe that people are going to stop eating factory farmed slop en masse and go for the more expensive 'nice' stuff?

So what evidence do you have for this huge shift in consumer habits? Because from where I'm sitting I'm just seeing more and more factory farms being built.
I think your arguments are all over the place. That was the point I was making there.

But to take one issue, the issue of farrowing crates, they're used for about 60% of pigs in the UK, nearly all pigs in Denmark, and no pigs at all in Norway, Sweden and Switzerland, where they're banned. So supporting a campaign to have them banned in the UK is a good thing to do, imho. When we were in the EU, UK campaigners were working towards an EU-wide ban.

You may well not think this enough, but it's not nothing. And it's also not nothing when the likes of McDonald's switch to farrowing crate-free meat. We're now close to a point where they will be banned in the UK, but one of the arguments used against this kind of ban is that it places UK farmers at a competitive disadvantage. What is really needed is international measures against this kind of thing - measures that would ensure that your parma ham or chorizo would also come from outdoor-bred pigs.

What are farrowing crates? | RSPCA Assured
 
So you actually believe that people are going to stop eating factory farmed slop en masse and go for the more expensive 'nice' stuff?

So what evidence do you have for this huge shift in consumer habits? Because from where I'm sitting I'm just seeing more and more factory farms being built.
Where would you place its liklihood versus people giving up meat completely?
 
Another measure, eggs, shows marked improvements in the last few years here in the UK. Free range eggs' share of the market has doubled in the last 20 years. Again, I would like to see caged hen eggs banned internationally. But at least they now only make up one third of the UK market.

UK Egg Industry Data | Official Egg Info

Doesn't totally solve welfare issues. Beak trimming is another practice I would like to see banned, and many free range hens still have their beaks trimmed. That's an issue I'd like to see given much wider attention.
 
Another measure, eggs, shows marked improvements in the last few years here in the UK. Free range eggs' share of the market has doubled in the last 20 years. Again, I would like to see caged hen eggs banned internationally. But at least they now only make up one third of the UK market.

UK Egg Industry Data | Official Egg Info

Doesn't totally solve welfare issues. Beak trimming is another practice I would like to see banned, and many free range hens still have their beaks trimmed. That's an issue I'd like to see given much wider attention.
Except

Of all their cons, the “free range” egg is perhaps the most audacious. You’d need Disney-level imagination to believe the UK can produce more than 10bn eggs each year without inconveniencing any chickens. But by slapping “free range” on the label, and perhaps a nice pastoral scene with a few chickens roaming free, most consumers never realise how the eggs came to be in the box.

 
That author would fit in well here. He makes some valid points but wraps them all up in so much self-righteousness that he just comes across as a twat.

None of that is new to me btw. The birds have their beaks trimmed because they are placed in overcrowded conditions. For decent hen welfare, you don't have to go organic necessarily. I recommend Waitrose blacktail eggs. The birds don't have their beaks trimmed. Their Essential range free range eggs on the other hand come from conditions like those described in that self-righteous article. The blacktail eggs are more expensive than the Essential ones but quite a bit cheaper than their most expensive eggs.
 
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That author would fit in well here. He makes some valid points but wraps them all up in so much self-righteousness that he just comes across as a twat.

None of that is new to me btw. The birds have their beaks trimmed because they are placed in overcrowded conditions. For decent hen welfare, you don't have to go organic necessarily. I recommend Waitrose blacktail eggs. The birds don't have their beaks trimmed. Their Essential range free range eggs on the other hand come from conditions like those described in that self-righteous article. The blacktail eggs are more expensive than the Essential ones but quite a bit cheaper than their most expensive eggs.
I'd go one step further and AI notwithstanding, suggest far more community owned egg production.

Pigs and poultry were domesticated alongside people and do pretty well off scraps in various forms (making sure they stay disease free, naturally). Plenty of community veg growing cropping up, adding chicken could only improve soil fertility and make those enterprises more holistic.

As I said before - more people producing food, rather than less.
 
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