littlebabyjesus
one of Maxwell's demons
Takes five or six minutes twice a day. And the cows are fine with being milked. They need it. I don't see great hardship in that particular aspect of their lives.
Bye bye MEAT! How will the post-meat future look?
- Thread starter MrCurry
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bcuster
Well-Known Member
It's the "getting slaughtered" part of the cows' day that is troubling...
ddraig
kicking against the pricks...
are you fucking for real?
They produce milk for their calves, who are stolen from them so they can provide you with the milk meant for calves
LBJ has spoken, there's no great hardship with being artificially inseminated, having your babies taken off you and then having to get your milk sucked out of you by a machine, no hardship at all
e2a - dress it up how you like but don't make claims and proclamations you won't and can't back up
littlebabyjesus
one of Maxwell's demons
There's a whole other ethical discussion to be had about breeding cows to be like that and taking away their calves (although dairy can be done without that last part), but once you have the cows there needing to be milked it would be cruel not to. Robotic milking systems allow cows to choose when to be milked, and they do choose it. Cos they'd be in trouble otherwise with all that milk in them. The cows willingly line up in a parlour to have their udders drained.
Picking on the aesthetic of the milking parlour, as judged by humans, misses the mark as a criticism of dairy farming. And they're not stuck in there for hours. They're there a few minutes each day, doing something that they would choose to do anyway.
Cows are social animals btw . Having them facing each other as they're milked doesn't seem such a bad idea.
Picking on the aesthetic of the milking parlour, as judged by humans, misses the mark as a criticism of dairy farming. And they're not stuck in there for hours. They're there a few minutes each day, doing something that they would choose to do anyway.
Cows are social animals btw . Having them facing each other as they're milked doesn't seem such a bad idea.
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butcher
boner at the ready
Just quoting an earlier post about provenance driven butchers shops
ddraig
kicking against the pricks...
"they're there anyway, might as well exploit them" is such a brilliant excuse for exploitation, could be used in all kinds of situations
"Cows are social animals" so isn't it lovely they get to face each other for a few minutes, let's not dwell on the fact they've had their babies ripped from them etc
Abusers can normalise all kinds of situations, don't make it right
"Cows are social animals" so isn't it lovely they get to face each other for a few minutes, let's not dwell on the fact they've had their babies ripped from them etc
Abusers can normalise all kinds of situations, don't make it right
Funky_monks
Neo-Rustic
You do realise that they spend the entire day with the rest of the cows, don't you?
Jeff Robinson
Marxist-Lentilist: Jackboots and Jackfruit
To focus on elements of dairy farming that, taken in isolation, seem relatively unproblematic, whilst vaguely gesturing towards "ethical discussion to be had" about the other parts reads like apologism to be honest. Cows only "need" to be milked because (1) they've been forcibly separated from their calves and (2) they've been selectively bred to produce far more milk than is healthy for their bodies. Factory farmers also justify debeaking chickens and de-tailing pigs on welfare grounds - they say they need to be protected from the aggression of other animals. What they omit to mention is that the aggression is only a threat in the first place because of they've crammed the animals so tightly into sheds!
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friedaweed
Me and me girl named Jane
Cost of living crisis: I'm going on the road to save my butcher's shop
As the cost of living crisis bites, butcher Gary Peline has bought a mobile shop to keep his business going.
www.bbc.co.uk
I suppose the cabbage juicers amongst you will think he's trying to work a niche market with this one by going mobile and suggest it serves him right for trying to earn a living from evil factory-bread beasts whilst they continue to nip into ASDA for there athletes foot fungus tika masala?
Oh so you're a cunt after all.Cost of living crisis: I'm going on the road to save my butcher's shop
As the cost of living crisis bites, butcher Gary Peline has bought a mobile shop to keep his business going.www.bbc.co.uk
I suppose the cabbage juicers amongst you will think he's trying to work a niche market with this one by going mobile and suggest it serves him right for trying to earn a living from evil factory-bread beasts whilst they continue to nip into ASDA for there athletes foot fungus tika masala?
that could work well with a mobile slaughterhouse?Cost of living crisis: I'm going on the road to save my butcher's shop
As the cost of living crisis bites, butcher Gary Peline has bought a mobile shop to keep his business going.www.bbc.co.uk
I suppose the cabbage juicers amongst you will think he's trying to work a niche market with this one by going mobile and suggest it serves him right for trying to earn a living from evil factory-bread beasts whilst they continue to nip into ASDA for there athletes foot fungus tika masala?
Mobile Abattoirs - Model Farm
Many small-scale abattoirs have been shut down, leading to increased animal transportation. Mobile abattoirs could be an ideal solution for animal welfare
modelfarmshop.org
friedaweed
Me and me girl named Jane
What can I say, this thread seems to bring out the best in people x
editor
hiraethified
What on earth are you talking about?
butcher
boner at the ready
Quorn I would imagine.
friedaweed
Me and me girl named Jane
Not as nutritious apparently.
WouldBe
Dislicksick
You mean they don't live locked up in solitary confinement all day?
bcuster
Well-Known Member
My concern on this subject is needless suffering by animals. This article sheds some light on "self-awareness" in animals:
getpocket.com
Key to their arguments is the scientific evidence that ... animals are self-aware like humans. Not only can they suffer, but they can think to themselves, I am suffering.
What Do Animals See in a Mirror?
A controversial test for self-awareness is dividing the animal kingdom.
Key to their arguments is the scientific evidence that ... animals are self-aware like humans. Not only can they suffer, but they can think to themselves, I am suffering.
souljacker
innit
That's a very selective quote from what is actually a very balanced article.
Funky_monks
Neo-Rustic
Which, fascinating as it is has very little to do with the subject at hand here.
Unless I've missed all the chimp and dolphin farms, that is.
Also, pretty sure nobody is saying that farmed animals can't suffer - the idea that they can is the basis of our welfare legislation, the five freedoms.
Jeff Robinson
Marxist-Lentilist: Jackboots and Jackfruit
Legislation which is weak and barely enforced. Farmed animals receive very little protection.
bcuster
Well-Known Member
I think the article's point is that the animals are self aware and cognizant of their human inflicted suffering
In order to have self-awareness, you need to have semiotic mediation between experience and the environment, to be able to recognise the self as an object and be able to mirror that object in the reflected world. You also need to have some kind of dialogic cognition, so that you can understand that there are alternative perspectives that do not centre you in experience. You need to be able to construct an identity in order to provide that self with continuity over time. I am extremely unconvinced that almost any animal has these abilities, and would not be at all surprised to discover humans are unique in having them all (or, indeed, any of them).
Certainly, the most likely contenders (like chimpanzees and apes) do not have these abilities. For example, a chimp can pick up and move a chair and then pick up a stick in order to get down some bananas. However, if either chair or stick is outside their visual field, they are unable to do this task, even if they have previously done it. This is because they have no internalised representation of their visual field. Without the ability to semiotically mediate the world, it is ephemeral. Without the ability to hold a narrative, there is no self-continuity and so no self.
None of which is to say that animals can’t suffer. The complement of an objective self is subjective experience. If animals cannot self-reflect then all they have is subjectivity. Suffering is the subjective experience of not having your needs met, which is fundamental to being an animal. And without self-continuity, there is no future or past, only the now. As such, suffering is absolute, because there is no conception of experience without suffering.
Certainly, the most likely contenders (like chimpanzees and apes) do not have these abilities. For example, a chimp can pick up and move a chair and then pick up a stick in order to get down some bananas. However, if either chair or stick is outside their visual field, they are unable to do this task, even if they have previously done it. This is because they have no internalised representation of their visual field. Without the ability to semiotically mediate the world, it is ephemeral. Without the ability to hold a narrative, there is no self-continuity and so no self.
None of which is to say that animals can’t suffer. The complement of an objective self is subjective experience. If animals cannot self-reflect then all they have is subjectivity. Suffering is the subjective experience of not having your needs met, which is fundamental to being an animal. And without self-continuity, there is no future or past, only the now. As such, suffering is absolute, because there is no conception of experience without suffering.
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8ball
Maximum Facepalm
I don't think athlete's foot is accurate. If I recall correctly the fungus involved is much more closely related to the one that old men get on their toenails, turning them yellow.
souljacker
innit
I think the articles point is that it's inconclusive. Did you read it?
Funky_monks
Neo-Rustic
It isn't.
Its point is that if you agree that the mirror test does indicate self awareness (and not cognisance), which many scientists don't, then some great apes have it, whereas monkeys do not and that it may be that dolphins do, but its not well supported.
editor
hiraethified
Ah, those lovely caring farmers
Livestock farming polluted rivers 300 times in one year
Only six farms are prosecuted for pollution despite 300 river contaminations in one year.
www.bbc.co.uk
editor
hiraethified
AHDB meat and dairy campaign returns with new TV advert - Farmers Weekly
An industry campaign that urges the public to buy more meat and dairy will return to TV screens this Christmas with a new advert. The AHDB is set to
And also:
Intensive, lower-carbon animal farming could raise pandemic risks
Agriculture not only has a greenhouse gas footprint, but also a disease footprint. An environmental expert outlines ways we can help reduce both.
www.weforum.org
Funky_monks
Neo-Rustic
And as if by magic, as soon as the discussion goes too far down a path that doesn't fit with the anti-science narrative of the conspiracists, bang! Massive unrelated source dump.
Agricultural pollution continues to drop whereas water company pollution continues to rise.......
Agricultural pollution continues to drop whereas water company pollution continues to rise.......
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