Bye bye MEAT! How will the post-meat future look?

[Saul Goodman]

View attachment 295510

The 'clearing rainforests to make soy mince' thing is utter horseshit and nobody who comes out with it does so in good faith.

If you want to keep eating meat that's fine, but you can't whatabout your way around the fact that doing so has a disproportionate impact on land and water use and climate change.

Used for cattle and cattle feed then. Or, to put it another way, used for cattle.

This old uneducated/ill-informed/disingenuous chestnut, again.
Soy beans are grown for their oil. The waste product that's left after the oil has been extracted is sold as animal feed. The fact that the waste is 80% of the product is immaterial

Nearly all soybeans are processed for their oil. Soy processors (such as Cargill & ADM) take the raw soybeans and separate the oil from the meal. The oil may be refined for cooking and other edible uses, or sold for biodiesel production or industrial uses. The processors bake the high-protein fiber that is left after the oil is removed and sell it for animal feed.

Would you rather the waste was dumped in a landfill?

Uses of Soybeans - North Carolina Soybeans

ncsoy.org

 

[glitch hiker]

So it's the fault of the vegans that factory farming can't be stopped? Seriously. Take a look at the bullshit you're posting.

Can you explain how you've come to that, incredibly bad faith, conclusion? If not then I can't address it

 

[Flavour]

You really are a dense fucking idiot. Go enjoy a sausage.

 

[editor]

Can you explain how you've come to that, incredibly bad faith, conclusion? If not then I can't address it

Have you forgotten your own words?

"Addressing factory farming is one area of concern where all can agree, but unfortunately given the nature of the vegan position that won't happen"

What the fuck has the 'vegan position' got to do with abolishing the vile cruelty and animal abuse inherent in factory farming?

 

[LDC]

The debate on this stuff just plumbs the depths of childish boredom sometimes. Want to write something sensible, but just posting these will have to do for now.

Beasts of burden - Antagonism and Practical History

An attempt to rethink the separation between animal liberationist and communist politics. (Published 1999).

libcom.org

Slightly easier to read on the screen version here Beasts of Burden: Capitalism, Animals, Communism

And a review of it here Beasts of Burden: Capitalism - Animals - Communism - Do Or Die

 

[CNT36]

This old uneducated/ill-informed/disingenuous chestnut, again.
Soy beans are grown for their oil. The waste product that's left after the oil has been extracted is sold as animal feed. The fact that the waste is 80% of the product is immaterial


Would you rather the waste was dumped in a landfill?

Uses of Soybeans - North Carolina Soybeans

ncsoy.org

Or both have value. Soy bean oil is about 4 x the price of Soy bean meal but you get about 4 x the weight of meal from a given quantity.... You start with 5KG you get about $1.30 worth of each today. You have to factor transport storage and all that bollocks in but either way both would seem to be equally worth someones while.

 

[glitch hiker]

What the fuck has the 'vegan position' got to do with abolishing the vile cruelty and animal abuse inherent in factory farming?

Because vegans aren't interested in compromising with their ideological opponents on matters of shared concern.

Certainly not in my experience. Maybe you can be the exception, but given your display of bad faith bullshit thus far I think it unlikely.

 

[editor]

Because vegans aren't interested in compromising with their ideological opponents on matters of shared concern.

Certainly not in my experience. Maybe you can be the exception, but given your display of bad faith bullshit thus far I think it unlikely.

You're like a cartoon Daily Mail character manufacturing opinions of all vegans as if they're some sort of ideological army. Or just a dull troll because no one can be this stupid.

The only reason why factory farms exist is because meat eaters like you continue to buy the shit that comes out of them. Trying to blame vegans just makes you look like a blame-shifting fucking idiot who has become totally detached from reality.

 

[platinumsage]

The debate on this stuff just plumbs the depths of childish boredom sometimes. Want to write something sensible, but just posting these will have to do for now.

Beasts of burden - Antagonism and Practical History

An attempt to rethink the separation between animal liberationist and communist politics. (Published 1999).

libcom.org

Slightly easier to read on the screen version here Beasts of Burden: Capitalism, Animals, Communism

And a review of it here Beasts of Burden: Capitalism - Animals - Communism - Do Or Die

You think that's sensible? It even has free-roaming goats.

How would a future global communist society deal with fellow comrade creatures such as rats and mosquitos I wonder?

 

[LDC]

How would a future global communist society deal with fellow comrade creatures such as rats and mosquitos I wonder?

I think that's not really the killer difficult question you seem to think it is.

 

[Saul Goodman]

Or both have value. Soy bean oil is about 4 x the price of Soy bean meal but you get about 4 x the weight of meal from a given quantity.... You start with 5KG you get about $1.30 worth of each today. You have to factor transport storage and all that bollocks in but either way both would seem to be equally worth someones while.

If farmers stopped buying the waste, the price of the oil would rise. If nobody bought the oil, soy production would all but stop. Its grown for the oil.

 

[platinumsage]

I think that's not really the killer difficult question you seem to think it is.

No, it's the philosophy that led to it that is absurd.

 

[glitch hiker]

You're like a cartoon Daily Mail character manufacturing opinions of all vegans as if they're some sort of ideological army. Or just a dull troll because no one can be this stupid.

The only reason why factory farms exist is because meat eaters like you continue to buy the shit that comes out of them. Trying to blame vegans just makes you look like a blame-shifting fucking idiot who has become totally detached from reality.

And yet, who is the abusive party in this conversation? So far all you've done is throw insults.

"meat eaters like me" this is infantile.

I haven't once blamed vegans for factory farms, but you're so ideologically driven that discusion is impossible. Common ground is imposible. Proving the point I'm making that you seem unwilling or unable to grasp.

 

[NoXion]

lol, Zerzan. Primitivism ain't the answer, even if the apocalypse necessary for a primitivist society to get going were to occur. They'd just get overtaken by those trying to reconstruct.

 

[CNT36]

If farmers stopped buying the waste, the price of the oil would rise. If nobody bought the oil, soy production would all but stop. Its grown for the oil.

No, it is grown for a profit.

 

[WouldBe]

The bizarre excuses and blame shifting just keep on coming!

If you think that poaching, fishing, hunting, rustling and illegal breading (OK I'm thinking puppy farms there) don't already happen and won't carry on or definitely increase if meat is 'banned' then you're either extremely naive or delusional.

 

[WouldBe]

This old uneducated/ill-informed/disingenuous chestnut, again.
Soy beans are grown for their oil. The waste product that's left after the oil has been extracted is sold as animal feed. The fact that the waste is 80% of the product is immaterial


Would you rather the waste was dumped in a landfill?

Uses of Soybeans - North Carolina Soybeans

ncsoy.org

Next they'll be claiming that most wheat is grown for animal food as the straw is used as bedding / eaten by cattle.

 

[Hollis]

Cutting out meat has been far less of a pain than I expected tbh.. I still eat fish, hence no claims to be veggie/vegan - though i'm still working on that. But I've also largely cut down dairy. I probably miss cheese and eggs more than any meat really.

 

[SpookyFrank]

Anyone know which is best for baking?

I use oat milk for baking normally. Put soy in my coffee. Hazelnut milk is useless for most things but unbelievably delicious in cocoa.

 

[SpookyFrank]

No, it's the philosophy that led to it that is absurd.

Ah, well when you put it like that. It's still rubbish.

 

[LDC]

lol, Zerzan. Primitivism ain't the answer, even if the apocalypse necessary for a primitivist society to get going were to occur. They'd just get overtaken by those trying to reconstruct.

None of those links argue for that at all, if that's what you were referring too.

 

[platinumsage]

Fish can vary a lot but if you’re concerned about CO2 then sardines, mackerel etc is a great option, better than lots of veg.

 

[JimW]

So the level of meat consumption can be addressed, but not in the nonsensical way prescribed that advocated people eat something like 20g meat a day since no one is going to bother doing that, which I suspect is the real point of saying something like that.

How much of the animal is wasted? Are the quantities of meat inclusive of organ meats for example? I don't recall the last time I saw a KFC Chicken Liver burger, for instance (though they may well do)?

I worked in rural development when I first came back here after graduation and the mountain farmers in the communities we served would tend to raise two pigs, one for market and one to slaughter at new year, and likely some chickens. Twenty grams of meat a day would be about right and is why a lot of trad Chinese recipes really only include a bit of pork mince for savour etc. The kind of quantities common in modern industrial diets really are pretty unusual, though IIRC we always did eat a bit more meat than most in the UK.

 

[beesonthewhatnow]

Cutting out meat has been far less of a pain than I expected tbh.. I still eat fish, hence no claims to be veggie/vegan - though i'm still working on that. But I've also largely cut down dairy. I probably miss cheese and eggs more than any meat really.

My meat consumption has gone down a fair bit over the last year or so, but dairy and fish has kinda gone up as a result. I occasionally try the non dairy alternatives for milk/cheese but they’re all bloody awful

 

[LDC]

No, it's the philosophy that led to it that is absurd.

I think treating animals as commodities to make money from is something that's fucked up, has led to loads of problems (even ignoring the 'welfare or rights' kind of stuff) and needs a massive re-think - along with other aspects of society, including very closely related ones like agriculture. It doesn't mean zero meat eating across the world (which I think is neither desirable nor possible), but it almost certainly means a radically different food production system/s to the one/s we have now.

 

[editor]

If you think that poaching, fishing, hunting, rustling and illegal breading (OK I'm thinking puppy farms there) don't already happen and won't carry on or definitely increase if meat is 'banned' then you're either extremely naive or delusional.

Good job I never made that claim, anywhere, ever.

 

[editor]

And yet, who is the abusive party in this conversation? So far all you've done is throw insults.

"meat eaters like me" this is infantile.

I haven't once blamed vegans for factory farms, but you're so ideologically driven that discusion is impossible. Common ground is imposible. Proving the point I'm making that you seem unwilling or unable to grasp.

I want factory farms closed down immediately. What common ground should I be exploring and how is my 'ideology' supposedly getting in the way?

 

[editor]

Fish can vary a lot but if you’re concerned about CO2 then sardines, mackerel etc is a great option, better than lots of veg.

Better than potatoes? Carrots? Peas? Turnips?

 

[editor]

How would a future global communist society deal with fellow comrade creatures such as rats and mosquitos I wonder?

This thread gets more ridiculous by the hour.

 

[platinumsage]

Better than potatoes? Carrots? Peas? Turnips?

I don't have the figures but as those all need dedicated land that can't be wild, as well as planting and fertilizing rather than simply harvesting, then maybe?