Bye bye MEAT! How will the post-meat future look?

[glitch hiker]

Bit like cheese making as I recall, and they skim the skin off the top for a different product you can by dried sheets of for noodles, hotpots and some starter type dishes.
I can only cook the block stuff about three ways myself but got the hang of it mainly by now, but things like the right sort of cooking wine help - glitch hiker wasn't having a go so much as saying you can't really expect the best of it so far from home and back in UK I went for more local bean type foods like pease puddings and butterbeans.

I wanted to try fermented tofu but that is very hard to find. Tesco has it on their website, but not locally. It's also more expensive which is unfortunate. As are many non meat options it seems. Things I guess that come from abroad.

 

[glitch hiker]

I'm not sure what you're hoping to achieve here but it's probably yet more whataboutery. Veganism is on the rise. It's as simple as that.
And that old article you just quoted proves that!

I didn't say it wasn't on the rise. I simply wanted to know if it was quite the rise you think it is when significant percentages don't stick with it. Perhaps because it's too austere. What do you say to those people? Just dismiss them as lazy I guess.

Oh wait. So now the NHS is wrong?

Classic appeal to authority

 

[Spymaster]

The new additions seem to be ultra-processed products made from cheap ingredients at a very high mark-up, hence the enthusiasm from our friendly neighbourhood capitalists.

And of course, as already pointed out, there's no way that some of that ultra-processed vegan stuff is going to be better for the environment than (for example) pork from an organically farmed pig. No amount of silly whataboutery is going to change that.

 

[8ball]

And of course, as already pointed out, there's no way that some of that ultra-processed vegan stuff is going to be better for the environment than (for example) pork from an organically farmed pig. No amount of silly whataboutery is going to change that.

I’m not sure, these things can be difficult to count and there is definitely some funny accounting going into some of the numbers I have seen.

One estimate of beef’s impact that I saw was counting rainwater falling on the field. As if that would all be collected and become part of the human water supply otherwise.

I expect there is a lot of headroom for messing about with soy protein, palm oil and fossil fuel derived chems before you hit the equivalent of beef tbf.

With your organically-farmed pig, a lot might depend on what it is eating.

 

[JimW]

I’m not sure, these things can be difficult to count and there is definitely some funny accounting going into some of the numbers
I have seen.
One estimate of beef’s impact that I saw was counting rainwater falling on the field. As if that would all be collected and become part of the human water supply otherwise.

With your organically-farmed pig, a lot might depend on what it is eating.

The sty was also the toilet in those mountain farms I worked with, but then they put unaged night soil on the veg too so couldn't feel too smug.

 

[editor]

Classic appeal to authority

Please, feel free to expand on why the NHS are wrong.

And then you can have a read of this

In 2011 a report from the Continuous Update Project was published. It found strong evidence that eating red meat or processed meat increases the risk of bowel cancer. The analysis of eight cohort studies showed a 17 per cent increased risk per 100g red meat per day (RR: 1.17 (1.05-1.31)). The analysis of nine cohort studies found strong evidence that eating processed meat increases the risk of bowel cancer by 18 per cent per 50g processed meat per day (RR 1.18 (1.10-1.28)). For both analyses the results of the individual studies were generally consistent – adding strength to the association.

Red meat and bowel cancer: the evidence | WCRF International

Our evidence shows that red and processed meat can cause bowel cancer. We're also exploring the mechanisms that make this happen

www.wcrf.org

Although the results vary, studies from around the world have suggested that a high consumption of meat is linked to an increased risk of colon cancer. In some studies, fresh meat appears culpable; in others, it's processed, cured, or salted meat — but in all cases the worry is confined to red meat, not chicken.

Red meat and colon cancer - Harvard Health

A number of studies have shown a link between increased consumption of red meat and an increased risk of colon cancer. Dietary changes and regular exercise are the best options for reducing one&#39...

www.health.harvard.edu

Colorectal cancer (CRC) is the third most common cancer in men and the second in women worldwide. More than half of cases occur in more developed countries. The consumption of red meat (beef, pork, lamb, veal, mutton) is high in developed countries and accumulated evidence until today demonstrated a convincing association between the intake of red meat and especially processed meat and CRC risk.

Red Meat and Colorectal Cancer

Colorectal cancer (CRC) is the third most common cancer in men and the second in women worldwide. More than half of cases occur in more developed countries. The consumption of red meat (beef, pork, lamb, veal, mutton) is high in developed countries and ...

www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov

 

[Saul Goodman]

I’m not sure, these things can be difficult to count and there is definitely some funny accounting going into some of the numbers
I have seen.
One estimate of beef’s impact that I saw was counting rainwater falling on the field. As if that would all be collected and become part of the human water supply otherwise.

With your organically-farmed pig, a lot might depend on what it is eating.

Some of the figures I've seen are totally contradictory. Some say beef is 3x worse than pork for CO2 emissions, while others say pork is slightly worse than beef.
It's hard to know which to believe but it's easy to know which sources not to believe.

 

[editor]

The supermarkets have had grains, pulses, nuts, fruits, herbs, spices and various vegetables for a pretty long time.

Er, yes. But they have not had a large range of vegan foods until recently and not all of that is 'ultra-processed,' so I'm at a loss what your point is here.

 

[Spymaster]

I’m not sure, these things can be difficult to count and there is definitely some funny accounting going into some of the numbers
I have seen.
One estimate of beef’s impact that I saw was counting rainwater falling on the field. As if that would all be collected and become part of the human water supply otherwise.

With your organically-farmed pig, a lot might depend on what it is eating.

Of course. But the fact remains that there are more and less environmentally sound ways of producing both meat and vegan food. There will be a crossover point at which the food from a well reared local pig is less damaging to the environment than ultra-processed vegan schiz that's been flown around the world. And there'll be degrees in between. Anyone who doesn't get that is a fucking idiot.

 

[8ball]

Er, yes. But they have not had a large range of vegan foods until recently and not all of that is 'ultra-processed,' so I'm at a loss what your point is here.

I thought I had just reeled off a range of the vegan foods available.

 

[glitch hiker]

And then you can have a read of this

Again: can you explain the causal mechanism?

 

[editor]

I thought I had just reeled off a range of the vegan foods available.

Oh you're playing pedantic silly buggers. OK, I'll try again.

Supermarkets have not had a large range of foodstuffs labelled as "vegan foods" until very recently, and not all of that is 'ultra-processed.'

 

[editor]

Again: can you explain the causal mechanism?

I'm not a scientist so why don't you read up on those studies and find out for yourself? There's plenty of data there.
Or are you now to assert that both the NHS and Harvard have in fact got it all wrong? In which case, let's see your workings.

 

[8ball]

Oh you're playing pedantic silly buggers.

Brilliant!

 

[editor]

Brilliant!

Oh you're back to your usual pathetic trolling. Time to stick you on ignore again for a while. Bye.

 

[Chilli.s]

I buy my tofu from a bloke who makes it at home then sells it off the back of a flatbed he drives round these couple of villages, cheap and actually tasty on its own, sometimes so fresh it's still warm.
Realise theres little chance of that in the UK but do think people in West who moan about it are like people here who think our bread is shit because they once had a slice of sweet wonderloaf.

You have inspired me to watch this



All I need is the beans and a straining cloth and I'm going to make some

 

[8ball]

Oh you're back to your usual pathetic trolling. Time to stick you on ignore again for a while. Bye.

I still have you on ignore - thought you were going to be less of a dick when you decided to break the mutual ignore pact.
I really should avoid clicking on "show ignored content".

Everyone here but you understands the point I was making.

 

[glitch hiker]

I'm not a scientist so why don't you read up on those studies and find out for yourself? There's plenty of data there.
Or are you now to assert that both the NHS and Harvard have in fact got it all wrong? In which case, let's see your workings.

This is not how science works. You're just arguing fallaciously. Yours is the burden of proof. Are you claiming red meat is causal? If so, please tell me the mechanism. I'm not doing your reading for you since, as they are your links, you'll know where to point me.

It's not the NHS responsible for the claim either, iirc. It's the 'EAT Lancet' people.

This is a good analysis: WHO Says Meat Causes Cancer? - Diagnosis Diet for the record she is more pro meat than I.

 

[8ball]

This is not how science works. You're just arguing fallaciously. Yours is the burden of proof. Are you claiming red meat is causal? If so, please tell me the mechanism. I'm not doing your reading for you since, as they are your links, you'll know where to point me.

It's not the NHS responsible for the claim either, iirc. It's the 'EAT Lancet' people.

This is a good analysis: WHO Says Meat Causes Cancer? - Diagnosis Diet for the record she is more pro meat than I.

Just to be totally clear - it is with unprocessed red meat that the evidence is muddy.
It's more clear with processed meats. Unfortunately bacon is really not good.*

* - unless you compare it to a longer life, but with no bacon

 

[kabbes]

Of course. But the fact remains that there are more and less environmentally sound ways of producing both meat and vegan food. There will be a crossover point at which the food from a well reared local pig is less damaging to the environment than ultra-processed vegan schiz that's been flown around the world. And there'll be degrees in between. Anyone who doesn't get that is a fucking idiot.

Well exactly

For example, the National Trust keep a small herd of bullocks on Dukes Warren on Leith Hill, because this is a sustainable way of preventing trees from supplanting the heathland. (The heathland, in turn, being vital habitat for red-listed ground nesting birds like nightjars). Once a year, the herd is slaughtered and the meat sold to local residents and butchers. To reiterate, the meat is a side-product of an ecological practice aimed at maintaining vital habitat.

The idea that a meat-substitute burger comprising Christ-knows what chemicals that’s been put through a factory process and involves packaging and warehousing that ships it around the globe is somehow less ecologically harmful than meat from that cattle? I don’t even know where to start with that.

Can the world eat meat reared in that way? Probably not, no. So what? I’m not trying to say what the world should do. The point is simply that things are more complicated than just “all meat destroys the planet and vegetarian food is necessarily superior as an axiomatic principle”

 

[editor]

This is not how science works. You're just arguing fallaciously. Yours is the burden of proof. Are you claiming red meat is causal? If so, please tell me the mechanism. I'm not doing your reading for you since, as they are your links, you'll know where to point me.

It's not the NHS responsible for the claim either, iirc. It's the 'EAT Lancet' people.

This is a good analysis: WHO Says Meat Causes Cancer? - Diagnosis Diet for the record she is more pro meat than I.

Oh for fuck's sake. You're ignoring the advice of the NHS and studies by Harvard in preference for a personal website promoting a faddy diet from someone with absolutely zero relevant qualifications.

I am a Harvard-trained, board-certified psychiatrist specializing in nutritional and metabolic psychiatry.

You've gone beyond a joke.

 

[glitch hiker]

Just to be totally clear - it is with unprocessed red meat that the evidence is muddy.
It's more clear with processed meats. Unfortunately bacon is really not good.*

* - unless you compare it to a longer life, but with no bacon

Well I mean, I can live without bacon or pepperami! Or anything else I can italicise

 

[glitch hiker]

Oh for fuck's sake. You're ignoring the advice of the NHS and studies by Harvard in preference for a personal website promoting a faddy diet from someone with absolutely zero relevant qualifications.



You've gone beyond a joke.

Correct. I am ignoring the advice of the NHS in this particular instance. OTOH you are doing nothing but arguing fallacies. I've twice asked you the causal factor, but you can't explain it.

You aren't addressing anything, don't understand what you're saying, all while promoting a faddy diet.

I don't think there's anything more to listen to from you. Another go at explaining the causal factor...?

 

[8ball]

Correct. I am ignoring the advice of the NHS in this particular instance. OTOH you are doing nothing but arguing fallacies. I've twice asked you the causal factor, but you can't explain it.

You aren't addressing anything, don't understand what you're saying, all while promoting a faddy diet.

I don't think there's anything more to listen to from you. Another go at explaining the causal factor...?

There's a potential risk from Maillard reaction products.

(just trying to help editor out a bit so we can get to the next funny...)

 

[xenon]

Just to be totally clear - it is with unprocessed red meat that the evidence is muddy.
It's more clear with processed meats. Unfortunately bacon is really not good.*

* - unless you compare it to a longer life, but with no bacon

When I buy bacon to cook at home, I get that nitrate free Finnebroke stuff. IIRC it's the curing and colourisation of regular bacon that is problematic.

not that I eat a whole lot of bacon. Once, twice a month maybe. not personly arguing against a reduction in in particular of beef and red meat.

I actually avoided having steak at a pub yesterday as a conscious thing to eat less beef... OK well I had fish and chips instead. The 3 bbean chili or helloumis and chips didn't appeal so much.

 

[8ball]

When I buy bacon to cook at home, I get that nitrate free Finnebroke stuff. IIRC it's the curing and colourisation of regular bacon that is problematic.

not that I eat a whole lot of bacon. Once, twice a month maybe. not personly arguing against a reduction in in particular of beef and red meat.

I actually avoided having steak at a pub yesterday as a conscious thing to eat less beef... OK well I had fish and chips instead. The 3 bbean chili or helloumis and chips didn't appeal so much.

Is it much different to regular bacon?

 

[beesonthewhatnow]

Of course. But the fact remains that there are more and less environmentally sound ways of producing both meat and vegan food. There will be a crossover point at which the food from a well reared local pig is less damaging to the environment than ultra-processed vegan schiz that's been flown around the world. And there'll be degrees in between. Anyone who doesn't get that is a fucking idiot.

So, vast international, interlinked, profit driven, food supply chains are complicated?

Blimey, who knew.

 

[xenon]

Is it much different to regular bacon?

It is quite different TBH. I don't know of other similar nitrate free brands. this one the rashers are thinner and have an almost sweeter taste. Certainly pleasant enough but as I say, not like regular bacon... Mind you if I haven't got that I have still occasionly bought unsmoked back from the local butcher, so may be an unfair comparison. The regular supermarket stuff is rubbish.

 

[Spymaster]

Can the world eat meat reared in that way? Probably not, no. So what? I’m not trying to say what the world should do. The point is simply that things are more complicated than just “all meat destroys the planet and vegetarian food is necessarily superior as an axiomatic principle”

Spot on. LBJ used to argue something very similar but obviously it just falls on dead ears around here.

 

[Saul Goodman]

Spot on. LBJ used to argue something very similar but obviously it just falls on dead ears around here.

Many have argued the same point, myself included. It just results in more graphs and arm flailing cries of cow rape.