burma - potential uprising?

[Barking_Mad]

5:30 p.m
Soldiers continue to fire on protestors at Pansodan Street. However, the number of casualties still remains unconfirmed.

5:15 p.m
More people joining in Sule

"Now there are about 30,000 to 40,000 have gathered in Sule. We don't know what will happen. At the moment, soldiers are shooting from above. The people are unhappy and are now gathering on the road. There are a lot of shootings, but we don't know how many died. Members of NLD arrested across the country. It is really bad. And more people are joining the protest," an eyewitness told Mizzima.

4:00 p.m
Student badly wounded

A student, who was under the Pansodan flyover, was hit by a bullet in his stomach when soldiers opened fire on protesters . He was seriously injured.

3:55 p.m.
Foreigner wounded in Sule

A 30-year old foreigner was injured in the gunfire in Sule. A batch with an American flag was found in his purse. Security men seized his video camera.

3: 50 p.m
Demonstrator shot dead near Pansoden Bridge.

Students from Dagon (1) and Latha Basic Education High Schools sent home early. Burmese Army attacks monks marching along Thar Mwe Kyaitkasan Road. Troops fire six times.

http://www.mizzima.com/MizzimaNews/News/2007/Sep/Today-demonstration.html

 

[Dillinger4]

I have just walked past a TV with BBC News 24 on it, said there is unconfirmed reports of automatic weapon fire on crowds of thousands.

Fucking Hell. How can this even happen? I feel so fucking useless, sat here in my room, whilst there are people dieing.

x billion

Is there ANYTHING I can do? I have a free day and can be sat in front of my computer for just about all of it? I could also make telephone calls or something.

Fuck.

 

[purves grundy]

Thanks for all contributions here - especially the likes of Purves and the news links

This may not be the most appropriate thread for me to re-raise this question - updates on news and information are more important obviously - but... - I wondered what you meant here fela? (and the other person who backed the view up with accusations of 'eurocentric' views being imposed on what they see as a completely seperate situation). What do you feel the history of the Burmese people is? (I agree on the need for sensitivity re terminology that has been very much mis-used by the military dictatorship - but use of terminology is not the same as actual history).

This is my very limited reading of the post-war history or Burma - The regime, newly emerged from British domination and where the ruling class was incapable of successfully 'holding the country together',faced a series of rebellions and wars. The army was formed from the 'Anti-Fascist Peoples Freedom League', which described itself as 'socialist'. With China as a model next door (this was just after the Chinese revolutionary movement had resulted in the coming to power of the CP dictatorship there), the army leaders tired of the incapacity of the landowners and capitalists to solve the problems of Burma. Basing themselves on the passive (then....) support of the workers and peasants, they organised a coup, expropriated the landowners and capitalists and established Burma as a "Burmese Buddhist Socialist State". In effect, a bonapartist regime was established that was not (as traditionally the case...) in defense of private ownership, but, given the then balance of world forces, using the control of exopropriated property to create their own power base. You may not like the terminology, but this describes a development of the marxist idea of colonial revolution and the idea of a deformed workers state.

The political situation after the withdraw of the British was - a weak indigenous boss class, the army using language of 'socialism' and the left democratic/nationalist parties using the language of 'socialism' in a completely different way (the leaders of which included the likes of Aung San Suu Kyi's father. The likes of Aung San's father recognised some similarities of condition, of class interests. Was he 'eurocentric'?

Hopefully you can expand on this and correct me where you feel I am wrong

As i said elsewhere, this is how I see the situation today:

Burma has one of the worst records of human rights abuses in the world, including the systematic use of rape and torture, forced labour (including child labour) and violent national oppression (of the Karen and other peoples). While the military absorbs 40% of the state budget, spending on health care is minimal and, in a country that once had the highest literacy rate, education standards have plummeted through lack of government funds.

The level of poverty and hunger means millions of families having no more than one meal a day. Once known as Asia’s rice bowl, Burma cannot sustain its own people. One third of the population are malnourished or physically underdeveloped.

Yet the top twelve military officers who form the junta live in luxury in the newly-built capital city – Naypyidaw - carved out of the jungle, 320 kilometres north of Rangoon. Much of the generals’ income derives from bribery, corruption and drug trafficking, especially of heroin. Anuj Chopra, who writes for the (London) Sunday Telegraph, commented, the new capital “offers a secure bolt-hole should the ongoing protests escalate in Rangoon…They are running away from their own people”.

What is the cause of these differences between the majority of the population and that of the ruling cliche?

I am wondering how UR's perspective is supposed to be eurocentric? how does it not fit the Burmese situation? - because he is using the term 'working class/people' and 'pesants'?

Are there no classes (or at least 'caste') interests involved in the reasons behind this ongoing and further unfolding nightmare for the vast majority of the Burmese people?

Can someone explain to me the why the situation is so 'unique' in Burma?

Probably best if this thread is kept clear for updates and opinion, but it's an interesting question. Is there another thread where we can tackle this?

 

[Dillinger4]

<snip>

dunno, just feel useless sat here like a voyeur.............

Me too.

 

[Belushi]

Is there ANYTHING I can do? I have a free day and can be sat in front of my computer for just about all of it? I could also make telephone calls or something.

Start harrasing the Chinese Embassy and the International Olympic Committee demanding Beijing be stripped of the games.

 

[Dillinger4]

Start harrasing the Chinese Embassy and the International Olympic Committee demanding Beijing be stripped of the games.

Excellent. I am shooting off emails as we speak.

 

[Belushi]

Excellent. I am shooting off emails as we speak.

I'm sending them demanding that the rest of the world boycotts the Beijing Olympics in protest like Moscow '79.

The Chinese are the only real influence on the Burmese Regime and these games are really important to them, they dont want any kind of bad press.

 

[Barking_Mad]

From a Burmese blogger:

Yesterday morning, I came to work as usual. There was nothing particular to see on the way to work, except that on Bahan St., 10 or 20 soldiers were stationed in Kandawgyi Park, at the area across the road leading to the Eastern Gate of Shwedagon Pagoda.

I got to work. I checked the news, and chatted with some friends. Then at 9:30, I had to go out on an office errand with the office car. So we drove to Myaynigone. On the way, the driver decided to take a look around, so we drove around Shwedagon Pagoda, but the road near Kyay Thun Buddha Image (Bronze Buddha Image), that led to Shwe Dagon Pagoda was barricaded. So we turned around, and drove to Shwegondine. The gates of the monasteries were closed, and inside some of these gates were 3 or 4 soldiers. We drove around Sule Pagoda, and in the Maha Bandoola Park across City Hall, soldiers (or police?) were standing guard with shields.

I got back to office around 11:00am. I was reading some documents for work when I heard noises outside the room. So I went to look, and the other people from other offices were looking out at the window. I looked too, and saw groups of people walking towards Sule Pagoda. So I went back in to office. After awhile, someone came into our office and told us that people are running, so we went to the window and looked again. We saw groups of people running back towards Sule Railroad Pass Bridge on Su Le Pagoda Road. But after awhile, they stopped running, and walked back towards there. I heard that it was because the police used tear gas. It went on like this for some hours.

Around 1:20 or 1:30pm, I heard someone saying that the police/army started shooting in the air. Someone from abroad messaged me on GTalk, and says he's hearing reports of shooting. So I asked around to be sure, and went to look out. I saw the people still standing on groups, and the buses were still running. I heard that they were shooting in the air, so I told him back that. I messaged to someone who's at work near Sule Pagoda Road, and he confirmed that they were shooting in the air. Also, reports of monks being hit by batons on Shwedagon Pagoda were already spreading on the net.

At 2:00pm, I heard that buses have stopped running on Sule Pagoda Road.

Someone from the office went out to there, and came running back when there were shots being fired. He said they were being shot up into the air, and into the crowd too. That was around 2:50pm. He didn't see anyone being hit, though a girl told him that her friend was hit. I heard the gun shots too, but it sounded alot like clapping. So I went out to look. People were running back, and some were just staying in the place, and some were walking back towards Sule Pagoda. I was reading the news on a blogger's Cbox, and it said that at least 5 monks were dead at Shwedagon Pagoda.

and another

Now, the government is trying to make a diversion. They give 10,000 kyats (around $7) & a set of Thin Gan(yellow robe) to "Swan Arr Shin"(like USDA which the form as a group that to crash down violently to protester) team and make them to pretend as Monks. Then, command to destroy the Islamic Mosque. This intends to become a fight between Buddhisms & Islams. So, if u hear or see the news that the monks are destroying the Mosque, these are not real monks. They are just fakes. As u all know, the real monks have no intention like that. So, give this information to Islams who u know and tell them

http://ko-htike.blogspot.com/

 

[Dillinger4]

I'm sending them demanding that the rest of the world boycotts the Beijing Olympics in protest like Moscow '79.

The Chinese are the only real influence on the Burmese Regime and these games are really important to them, they dont want any kind of bad press.

Same. I am sending emails to all the contacts I can find on the Chinese embassy website.

maybe it would be a good idea to post these emails and a template so anyone reading this thread can do the same?

 

[dennisr]

Start a new thread please - this ain't the one for sticking your head up your ideological arse. Fucking insulting, IMO.

There is nothing 'insulting' in trying to understand what is happening.

And as for the equally unnecessary opinion as to where I stick my head it has probably been more effective in events I am able to do something about than playing 'mr. angry' on a bulletin board.

I can understand your frustration at unfolding events but don't take it out on or insult me you plank.

 

[Belushi]

Same. I am sending emails to all the contacts I can find on the Chinese embassy website.

maybe it would be a good idea to post these emails and a template so anyone reading this thread can do the same?

Aye, a thread with different contacts to harrass may be usefull

 

[dennisr]

Aye, a thread with different contacts to harrass may be usefull

yep, seconded

 

[Dillinger4]

There is nothing 'insulting' in trying to understand what is happening.

And as for the equally unnecessary opinion as to where I stick my head it has probably been more effective in events I am able to do something about than playing 'mr. angry' on a bulletin board.

I can understand your frustration at unfolding events but don't take it out on or insult me you plank.

FFS. not today.

 

[poster342002]

dennisr is adding valid and worthwhile comments on what's happening. Leave him alone.

 

[Barking_Mad]

I've read this a few times, unsure as to it's source of accuracy:

They're bulldozing Ngwe-Kyar-Yan monastery. The head abbot there has passed on.

 

[dennisr]

I've read this a few times, unsure as to it's source of accuracy:

If true - i get the impression (maybe hopeful on my part...) that attacks on the monks are drawing out other folk to protest. If so, bulldozing the monestry could have a very different effect to that intended by the military?

(its all only speculation I suppose..)

 

[purves grundy]

I think that is Sayadaw Ngwe Kyar Yan. V high status.

 

[purves grundy]

If so, bulldozing the monestry could have a very different effect to that intended by the military?

Or, given the firepower that they have and with battle-hardened units on the way from ethnic conflict zones, that is exactly what they want. Shock and awe style.

 

[Dillinger4]

If true - i get the impression (maybe hopeful on my part...) that attacks on the monks are drawing out other folk to protest. If so, bulldozing the monestry could have a very different effect to that intended by the military?

(its all only speculation I suppose..)

Can only hope.

 

[purves grundy]

Reporters Without Borders is appalled by the death of a Japanese news photographer on the streets of Rangoon this morning. Another foreign journalist was reportedly injured. The press casualties came after the security forces opened fire on demonstrators near the Traders Hotel in the centre of Rangoon.

.

 

[ymu]

The contact us page for the Chinese Embassy has been deleted?
http://www.china-embassy.org/eng/sgxx/dfzygy/t44338.htm


UK (more relevant offices)
http://www.chinese-embassy.org.uk/eng/sgxx/t27049.htm:

Political Counsellor Zhang Lirong

TEL: Wang Shuying : 020 72994032 , Liu Weimin : 020 72994088 ,

Zhai Yanping : 020 72994036,07974827322

Zhou Yan : 020 72994037 ,Li Hua :020 72994078

Fax: 020-76362981

Press Counsellor

TEL:Zhao Shangsen: 020-72994071 ,07976880066 ;Zhou Wen:020 72994070; Yu Jing:020 72994094
Fax: 020-76365578

Email: [email protected]

Director of Administration Office Qin Shuren
Tel: Tang Ying:020-72994021; Liu Zhongdong: 07976880077
Fax:020-76370399

Culture
Counsellor Wu Xun

Tel: 020-7431 8830 , Jiang Lihua:07798582397
Fax: 020-7431 8810

Email: [email protected]
Address: 11 West Heath Road, Hampstead NW3 7UX

 

[Dillinger4]

I got bounced off the cultural office email...

 

[ymu]

I'm resending to press now ... political doesn't list an e-mail addy

 

[fela fan]

Here on cable tv in thailand it's amazing the difference in quality and in-depth coverage of the events in burma between cnn and bbc. The latter are pathetic in comparison.

Not necessarily the most important thing in the context of things, but as far as i'm concerned the burmese people cannot win without outside help.

At this moment in time it seems that already too many have lost their lives to the butchers of burma.

I just wonder what will happen tomorrow. The monks have started it all, after 19 years. But last night it seems that most if not all monasteries have been blocked by soldiers meaning monks could not get out today to protest. So, that leaves the people themselves, but they have been cowed by extreme fear for 19 years. They have come out because the monks came out. Now the monks are blocked from continuing, what happens next?

My feeling is that they have been roused from their fear, will not give up now, and will continue.

But that happened back in 88 and they had to give in to the thugs with guns. I still feel that due to today's technology they will win their freedom, but at what price?

 

[purves grundy]

Yes, it would be incredible if the numbers are maintained tomorrow. Too many have died already, as you say. The brutality can only get worse.

My hope now is that the international community - if it exists - now knows that the miltary regime has no legitimacy and doesn't command the confidence of the people. Sounds obvious to say this, but with the military's constitution being prepared to be put to a referendum (which would've been rigged), the junta was about to be set in stone. The timing of these protests has been critical.

The junta crave anonymity, they hate being in the spotlight. Now they are, and I hope that gears begin to shift at diplomatic level and the right type of pressure can be put on them to begin a dialogue. A dialogue, ffs, doesn't sound like much does it? But they've avoided it since the annulled elections, and it's the best hope for this country now.

 

[poster342002]

The junta crave anonymity, they hate being in the spotlight.

That's a point. Has there been any official statement by President Than-Shwe regarding the crises? What's he doing amidst all this?

 

[fela fan]

The thing that gets me is that without outside intervention nothing will change. The people over the years have begged for help.

And then what happens a few months ago? The thugs and all the civil servants move into their very own new purpose-built city, negating rangoon as the capital.

So, it's bloody simple, bomb this brand new city and get rid of the brutal bastards in one go.

 

[fela fan]

That's a point. Has there been any official statement by President Than-Shwe regarding the crises? What's he doing amidst all this?

Just blow up the city he created for him and his ilk.

 

[Brainaddict]

The thing that gets me is that without outside intervention nothing will change. The people over the years have begged for help.

And then what happens a few months ago? The thugs and all the civil servants move into their very own new purpose-built city, negating rangoon as the capital.

So, it's bloody simple, bomb this brand new city and get rid of the brutal bastards in one go.

The thought has occured to me as well There would be some innocent people killed but in this case it might be worth it.
Of course the difficult question is who should do it.

 

[purves grundy]

That's a point. Has there been any official statement on the crises by President Than-Shwe? What's he doing amidst all this?

No word from him. He rarely appears - only just managed to make Armed Forces Day this year and last - and makes even fewer statements. He has his own palace in the new capital, and he'll be holed up there as will the rest of the top brass. His wife, prize bitch Kyaing Kyaing, is rumoured to have gone to Thailand with their children also.

I'd guess that the first we'll hear from him / see of him will be when UN spesh envoy Gambari arrives. If he's let in.