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British IS schoolgirl 'wants to return home'

My position is the same as what it was back when this thread started, I don’t give a shit about Begum as an individual but don't think the Home Secretary should have the power to strip citizenship acquired at birth.
But clearly he does and I can't see she has much hope of ever coming back here now.
 
Shamima Begum was born and raised in Britain, but the government of the UK thinks that the Kurdish-led Autonomous Administration of North and East Syria should take responsibility for her or, failing that, the People’s Republic of Bangladesh. The latter has made clear that she will not be given Bangladeshi citizenship.

The Autonomous Administration of North and East Syria wants Shamima Begum to be repatriated. However, as it is not recognised as a state, it does not have the power to deport her to Britain.

The UK’s position is cynicism of the highest order. The UK is forcing an unrecognised quasi-state to do its bidding, and demonstrating that it does not have faith in its own legal processes.

Citizens of foreign states are sometimes deported from the UK when convicted of criminal offences. I imagine that more than a few of those who oppose the repatriation of Shamima Begum would be outraged if the UK was unable to deport a foreign citizen because the other state had revoked the citizenship of that person. A principle must be applied universally.

Yes, the law under which we live is bourgeois law, but I prefer the rule of bourgeois law to the diktat of a minister of a bourgeois government.

Justice must be done, and be seen to be done.

If Shamima Begum has broken British law (and no-one seems to be able to say which law she broken) she should be charged under British law and tried in a British court.

British citizens are supposedly free from arbitrary arrest and detention, rights that some would claim date back to Magna Carta.

Autocracies across the world detain people on the basis of secret “intelligence” testimony, and the UK is going one step further, permanently exiling one of its own citizens on the basis of secret “intelligence”.

Under British “anti-terrorism” legislation there is not one single offence with one penalty. There are a range of offences, with a range of penalties. Had Shamima Begun not been theoretically entitled to citizenship of another state, the UK would have had to accept her repatriation, and she could have been tried in Britain for any alleged offences, and have received an appropriate sentence, if found guilty.

The statue of justice atop the Old Bailey wears a blindfold, to represent the concept of judging the accused on the basis of the evidence, not on the basis of who they are. Everyone should be equal before the law, and it is clearly a violation of this principle for two citizens of the UK to be treated differently.

The UK government can remove the citizenship of one person, and sentence them to be exiled, without a trial, and yet will repatriate another person who has committed the same offence, and try them in a court of law. Some UK citizens are effectively second-class citizens, because their citizenship can be removed, and they can be denied a fair trial, whereas the citizenship of others cannot be removed, no matter what they have done.

The UK is behaving in a different fashion to other states with respect to this issue. Other states in Europe have accepted responsibility for all their citizens who were involved with ISIS, and repatriated them.

The UK is acting outwith the rule of law in the Shamima Begum case.
 
The UK is acting outwith the rule of law in the Shamima Begum case.

Which law?

The UK is behaving in a different fashion to other states with respect to this issue. Other states in Europe have accepted responsibility for all their citizens who were involved with ISIS, and repatriated them.

Wrong. Other states have repatriated and tried non dual nationals. As has the UK.

Of the EU states, Denmark, Germany and France, have ALL stripped the citizenships of dual national jihadists.
 
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Citizens of foreign states are sometimes deported from the UK when convicted of criminal offences. I imagine that more than a few of those who oppose the repatriation of Shamima Begum would be outraged if the UK was unable to deport a foreign citizen because the other state had revoked the citizenship of that person. A principle must be applied universally.

Nope. If the other state beat the UK to it, we'd be stuck with the fuckers. No double standards here.

This has happened, by the way. In the case of Jack Letts, it was basically a race between the UK and Canada, who would strip him first. Canada lost.

This notion that you have that the UK is acting uniquely is simply wrong. This has all been discussed in great detail on this thread.
 
If Shamima Begum has broken British law (and no-one seems to be able to say which law she broken) ...

I can help you here. The British law she has broken is joining/membership of a proscibed organisation.

... she should be charged under British law and tried in a British court.

She can't be tried in a British court for the crimes she has committed in Iraq and Syria (aiding and abetting genocide, rape, and torture). Do you think she should be able to simply walk away from those?
 
The UK government can remove the citizenship of one person, and sentence them to be exiled, without a trial, and yet will repatriate another person who has committed the same offence, and try them in a court of law. Some UK citizens are effectively second-class citizens, because their citizenship can be removed, and they can be denied a fair trial, whereas the citizenship of others cannot be removed, no matter what they have done.

There are around 100,000 people being held in Al Roj and Al Hawl. Begum is just one of them. Do you think the rest are all British? Scores of countries are represented by the people there. They also don't want them back. Hoda Muthana is a former American woman in an almost identical position to Begum, except that her citizenship was revoked by the Obama administration on the grounds of her having Yemeni status through her father. Australia have a bunch of people there that they've also consistently refused to repatriate. Nobody wants these people because the camps are hotbeds of radicalisation and many nations are, sensibly, concerned about the consequences of repatriating a bunch of potential terrorists.

Your posts on this read like you've read a few opinion pieces by people you want to agree with and are simply reproducing them here uncritically.
 
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Life must be shit for her but why would it be any better here? It’s so high profile that this will just follow her forever. She fucked her life by making the decision to go to Syria.
As did the other two who went with her who are now apparently dead.
 
Life must be shit for her but why would it be any better here? It’s so high profile that this will just follow her forever. She fucked her life by making the decision to go to Syria.
As did the other two who went with her who are now apparently dead.
It's lucky that apparently it's only brown women who are damned by decisions they made as minors and not white men
 
It's lucky that apparently it's only brown women who are damned by decisions they made as minors and not white men
I’m struggling to find any white men who joined ISIS as minors, but here’s some brown ones that don’t have any dedicated threads on here.

 
I’m struggling to find any white men who joined ISIS as minors, but here’s some brown ones that don’t have any dedicated threads on here.

Perhaps you could have read the post and cast the net rather wider. Did I say white men who joined isis as minors? You might have thought of eg arsonist nick clegg.
 
Shamima Begum is/was not a “dual national”, as has been claimed on this thread. She is as British as millions of others of us.

The fact that some UK citizens are repatriated from Syria and others are not illustrates that some of us are effectively second-class citizens.

One class of UK citizen cannot have their citizenship removed. They cannot be punished without trial. The other class of UK citizen can have their citizenship removed, and be prevented from returning to Britain, on the say-so of the Home Secretary, on the basis of secret considerations.

It is not true that someone cannot be prosecuted in this country for genocide and crimes against humanity committed in another country. People have been in Britain for such crimes.

It seems to me that the UK and other states are failing in their responsibilities under international law if they are making no effort to bring to trial people in camps in Syria who are suspected of genocide or crimes against humanity. I believe that all states are obligated to facilitate the prosecution of such crimes.
 
Shamima Begum is/was not a “dual national”, as has been claimed on this thread. She is as British as millions of others of us.

Wrong. This is a legal issue, and not subject to what you or anyone else think should be the case. She was a citizen of Bangladesh under their law until the age of 21, as well as of the UK. Again, this has been covered extensively in this thread. Three courts have now ruled on the matter.

The fact that some UK citizens are repatriated from Syria and others are not illustrates that some of us are effectively second-class citizens.

One class of UK citizen cannot have their citizenship removed. They cannot be punished without trial. The other class of UK citizen can have their citizenship removed, and be prevented from returning to Britain, on the say-so of the Home Secretary, on the basis of secret considerations.

The fact that some Brits hold dual nationality puts many of those people at a significant advantage over sole nationals. With those benefits come a few responsibilities. One of those is not being such a massive cunt that you attract the attention of the Home Secretary. I too, proudly hold dual nationality and do not feel in any way a 2nd class citizen. I will avoid deportation by not joining any genocidal rape cults. If I were minded to do so, I would avoid being stripped of my UK citizenship by renouncing my Irish one. Nobody is forced to keep dual nationality.

It seems to me that the UK and other states are failing in their responsibilities under international law if they are making no effort to bring to trial people in camps in Syria who are suspected of genocide or crimes against humanity. I believe that all states are obligated to facilitate the prosecution of such crimes.

What you believe, doesn't define what international law is. You've still not explained which law is being broken here.

At least you've shifted from the UK, to "the UK and other states" now, so I guess that's progress.
 
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More nuanced than that - I'm a dual citizen, I have more rights and opportunities than my neighbour who isn't, but those rights also come with downsides.

In this case, the debate is skewed by the fact that her other country is Bangladesh - which isn't high on most people's 'places I want to move to' list - but if it was New Zealand, or Finland, or Switzerland, would there be so much wailing and gnashing of teeth, or would be a bit more lucky fucker...?

Except she's not a citizen of Bangladesh, never has been and is not eligible for Bangladeshi citizenship.
 
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No she's not a Bangladeshi citizen. Never has been. She was eligible for Bangladeshi citizenship but didn't claim it. She was, however, a British subject (we don't have proper citizens), now revoked. Like I say, I really don't give a fuck about this appalling Begum person, but I do give a fuck about people arbitrarily having "citizenship" revoked for political/populist reasons. The same would go for people like Tommy Robinson types who I also don't give a fuck about.
 
The fact that some Brits hold dual nationality puts many of those people at a significant advantage over sole nationals. With those benefits come a few responsibilities. One of those is not being such a massive cunt that you attract the attention of the Home Secretary.
surely this means that a number of the parliamentary labour party are at great risk of being stripped of their British citizenship, such as Margaret hodge, the paedos' friend
 
Nobody is forced to keep dual nationality.

Renouncing citizenship is not always a simple matter. Getting rid of Russian citizenship is a bureaucratic nightmare and, even if you're successful, thanks to new home office rules you still get a note on your UK passport saying 'this person also has a Russian passport'. With the world as it is, that alone could put someone at risk.

Also if we're at a point where the UK state can arbitrarily decide you're a dual national even when you're not, as a pretext for removing UK citizenship without due process, then it's a bit of a risk getting rid of a second nationality as you might end up with none.

And before we start with 'just don't be a terrorist then', well in some places you get labelled a terrorist or a foreign spy just for putting flowers on a war memorial. People here in the UK have been charged with terrorism for environmental protests, or in the case of one man for reading an al Qaeda publication that was on his 'terrorism studies' reading list. When the terrorism bit didn't stick, they tried to deport him anyway out of sheer spite.
 
And before we start with 'just don't be a terrorist then', well in some places you get labelled a terrorist or a foreign spy just for putting flowers on a war memorial. People here in the UK have been charged with terrorism for environmental protests, or in the case of one man for reading an al Qaeda publication that was on his 'terrorism studies' reading list. When the terrorism bit didn't stick, they tried to deport him anyway out of sheer spite.
And thats before you get on to the number of irish people framed for crimes they didn't commit
 
This could be very easily resolved by ruling that it's not possible to be a dual national without your knowledge due to some ancestral link and law of another country that you have no reason to know about. That way, people from certain ethnic minorities cannot be treated differently and considered 'less British'.

Those pretending not to get this point and pretending it isn't a rotten form of discrimination are being disingenuous.
 
This could be very easily resolved by ruling that it's not possible to be a dual national without your knowledge due to some ancestral link and law of another country that you have no reason to know about. That way, people from certain ethnic minorities cannot be treated differently and considered 'less British'.

Those pretending not to get this point and pretending it isn't a rotten form of discrimination are being disingenuous.

:facepalm:

You've been told why this couldn't have happened.
 
Legal rulings aside, the thing I’m uncomfortable with is that she is only really in this position because the British press made an example of her, and the government ruling was a reaction to that. I don’t really like that we are ruled in this manner.

(Accepting she’d have done better keeping quiet rather than allowing herself to be interviewed by the media, but not bright enough to see the consequences).
 
Wrong. This is a legal issue, and not subject to what you or anyone else think should be the case. She was a citizen of Bangladesh under their law until the age of 21, as well as of the UK. Again, this has been covered extensively in this thread. Three courts have now ruled on the matter.



The fact that some Brits hold dual nationality puts many of those people at a significant advantage over sole nationals. With those benefits come a few responsibilities. One of those is not being such a massive cunt that you attract the attention of the Home Secretary. I too, proudly hold dual nationality and do not feel in any way a 2nd class citizen. I will avoid deportation by not joining any genocidal rape cults. If I were minded to do so, I would avoid being stripped of my UK citizenship by renouncing my Irish one. Nobody is forced to keep dual nationality.



What you believe, doesn't define what international law is. You've still not explained which law is being broken here.

At least you've shifted from the UK, to "the UK and other states" now, so I guess that's progress.
"With those benefits come a few responsibilities. One of those is not being such a massive cunt that you attract the attention of the Home Secretary."

Given that the process whereby someone is deprived of their UK citizenship is in this and other cases secret, we have no way of being sure that it would not happen to us.

If you have evidence that Shamima Begum committed genocide, then you have a duty to pass it on to the International Criminal Court. Many people have been members of, or given their support to, organisations that have engaged in crimes against humanity and/or genocide, but not every member of those organisations was guilty of those crimes.
 
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