British IS schoolgirl 'wants to return home'

[littlebabyjesus]

there's two totally separate things that people are constantly mixing up, basically
1) Is begum a horrible shit who deserves whatever she gets etc and
2) should the citizenship of some British people be contingent on their behaviour whilst everyone else's is irrevokable.
Mixing them up on purpose or not leads to 200 pages of shitposting.

And should 2) be decided based on the laws of other countries? That's what is being said here. A person's UK citizenship status doesn't only depend on UK law. You'd better have a careful look at your ancestry and look up the laws of any countries you might be connected to purely by ancestry if you want to ensure your British citizenship is secure, and this is especially true if you're a kid. Get lawyered up, kids. If you don't, you only have yourselves to blame. The courts won't protect you from the UK govt's arbitrary misuse of power.

 

[cesare]

there's two totally separate things that people are constantly mixing up, basically
1) Is begum a horrible shit who deserves whatever she gets etc and
2) should the citizenship of some British people be contingent on their behaviour whilst everyone else's is irrevokable.
Mixing them up on purpose or not leads to 200 pages of shitposting.

Whose UK citizenship do you say is irrevocable?

 

[bimble]

Whose UK citizenship do you say is irrevocable?

anyone who is thoroughly british through and through no risk of being dumped elsewhere due to their descent

 

[littlebabyjesus]

Whose UK citizenship do you say is irrevocable?

Mine for starters. I don't have Bangladeshi heritage. I only have UK citizenship and I'm pretty sure I don't have a right to any other citizenship, either actual or theoretical.

Anyone with Indian parents as well. India doesn't allow dual nationality.

It's a pretty arbitrary list.

 

[cesare]

And should 2) be decided based on the laws of other countries? That's what is being said here. A person's UK citizenship status doesn't only depend on UK law. You'd better have a careful look at your ancestry and look up the laws of any countries you might be connected to purely by ancestry if you want to ensure your British citizenship is secure, and this is especially true if you're a kid. Get lawyered up, kids. If you don't, you only have yourselves to blame.

2) In the UK isn't decided upon by the laws of other countries. Isn't that the point? The UK applies its own law (whether justice or not, frequently not) and then other countries apply theirs.

 

[bimble]

i could legally be dumped on at least 3 places i think, if i did the necessary crimes under uk law to warrant stripping me of my provisional britishness

 

[cesare]

anyone who is thoroughly british through and through no risk of being dumped elsewhere due to their descent

So my descent includes Irish therefore if I lost my citizenship in the UK by my actions (obv argument there as to actions for children, whether able etc) but then I would turn to Ireland and see if I could get citizenship there - if I didn't already have it via Ireland's citizenship laws. I wouldn't like it, but I can't see the legal point you're making.

 

[bimble]

So my descent includes Irish therefore if I lost my citizenship in the UK by my actions (obv argument there as to actions for children, whether able etc) but then I would turn to Ireland and see if I could get citizenship there - if I didn't already have it via Ireland's citizenship laws. I wouldn't like it, but I can't see the legal point you're making.

It’s not like that, wouldn’t be up to you. If you had no foreign ancestry you couldn’t lose your Britishness, that’s what my point is. I get that some people think that’s fine cos it’s legal.

 

[cesare]

Mine for starters. I don't have Bangladeshi heritage. I only have UK citizenship and I'm pretty sure I don't have a right to any other citizenship, either actual or theoretical.

Anyone with Indian parents as well. India doesn't allow dual nationality.

It's a pretty arbitrary list.

If you don't have any other citizenship rights in other countries, could the UK leave you stateless?

 

[weltweit]

I am sure this has been said on this long long thread but she was a child when she was radicalised and went on her initial journey. Children should be protected from radicalisation. She wasn't.

 

[cesare]

It’s not like that, wouldn’t be up to you.

I could get Irish citizenship now if I applied for it. Not my final decision, but I meet the criteria.

 

[JimW]

If you don't have any other citizenship rights in other countries, could the UK leave you stateless?

They're signatory to treaties that say they won't do that so this was why they found the loophole.

 

[cesare]

They're signatory to treaties that say they won't do that so this was why they found the loophole.

Do you mind explaining a bit more, not sure I follow re "loophole".

 

[littlebabyjesus]

The UK govt/court are saying that Begum is already a Bangladeshi citizen, despite not having any idea that she was even entitled to it, despite the Bangladeshi govt having no record of her whatever and also stating that she isn't, and despite the fact that said theoretical Bangladeshi citizenship was set to expire on her 21st birthday.

This could not have been done to her if her parents had not been Bangladeshi. It also could not have been done to her if she had been 21 or older at the time it was done.

 

[JimW]

Do you mind explaining a bit more, not sure I follow re "loophole".

This bit where they can claim she has automatic bangladeshi citizenship despite that state denying it, and hence stripping her of UK citizenship isn't making her stateless in a technical sense.

 

[Rob Ray]

If I had done what Shamima Begum did, as an adult, it would be impossible to strip me of citizenship. That privilege is mine solely because my parents are of Western European descent. The law as it now stands includes a clause that if your parents migrated here, and were foolish enough to do so from a country with unclear legislation on the matter, you can be condemned never to return to your home via Ministerial decision. Not a jury of your peers, not a magistrate or judge, but by a politician whose knowledge of the matter may well extend no further than reading The Sun Says.

 

[Magnus McGinty]

She didn't go there thinking she'd be murdering/raping anyone. She was sold a dream: going to a better place, a better life, where she'd fit in better. It made me think of children who are groomed into selling drugs because they think it harms no one and it's cool and they don't even realise that it can get violent and brutal. Rose tinted glasses and that.

The way women were treated and kept there was to give the men a family, "satisfy their needs" and to look after them - not much else. Basically, baby making machines/maid/someone to have sex with - barely being let out of their homes.

Jesus. It’s almost as if none of us were ever teenagers. We all knew drugs were illegal and that the world surrounding it was violent.
And that’s what made it exciting

 

[cesare]

This bit where they can claim she has automatic bangladeshi citizenship despite that state denying it, and hence stripping her of UK citizenship isn't making her stateless in a technical sense.

As I understand it, Bangladeshi automatic citizenship is fairly similar to Ireland's? (Some expert can put me right if I've misunderstood, happy to concede if I've got it wrong.). But it's that sort of automatic which is subject to an application process against set criteria?

So is Bangladesh saying that the UK courts have got it wrong, she doesn't have automatic citizenship in Bangladesh in a similar way to Ireland. Or is Bangladesh saying that they won't extend its citizenship to her, because behaviour etc (and with point about decision-making ability at 15 before frontal brain fully matured etc). In which case it's Bangladesh that should be drawing the opprobrium surely? Because it would be its actions leaving her stateless, not the UK's.

 

[girasol]

Jesus. It’s almost as if none of us were ever teenagers. We all knew drugs were illegal and that the world surrounding it was violent.

No we didn't all know this, you can speak for yourself and I can speak for myself. It is glamourised and seen as cool - as well as being harmless and fun and rebellious too. I think a lot of people only realise the actual harm caused by drugs later in life - i.e. the real cost of the cocaine trade, and even the cannabis trade, which is seen as a harmless drug.

anyway, don't want this to turn into a derailment. But FACT, teenagers don't quite understand what they're getting into A LOT of the time, if they did the world would be very different. Rape and murder are black and white - going to live a life somewhere else, somewhere my friend who's already there says is great, is a whole different thing.(Shamima & friends already had a friend there who encouraged them to go join her)

 

[JimW]

As I understand it, Bangladeshi automatic citizenship is fairly similar to Ireland's? (Some expert can put me right if I've misunderstood, happy to concede if I've got it wrong.). But it's that sort of automatic which is subject to an application process against set criteria?

So is Bangladesh saying that the UK courts have got it wrong, she doesn't have automatic citizenship in Bangladesh in a similar way to Ireland. Or is Bangladesh saying that they won't extend its citizenship to her, because behaviour etc (and with point about decision-making ability at 15 before frontal brain fully matured etc). In which case it's Bangladesh that should be drawing the opprobrium surely? Because it would be its actions leaving her stateless, not the UK's.

I only know what I've read on this thread.

 

[_Russ_]

Fuck the technicalities.
I know the groupthink in here is that anyone sufficently removed from the white male Gammon stereotype should automatically be given a shitload of benefit of the doubt but evil cunts come in all shapes, sizes, colours, creeds and sexes.

 

[Petcha]

I am sure this has been said on this long long thread but she was a child when she was radicalised and went on her initial journey. Children should be protected from radicalisation. She wasn't.

Yeh it has. That's what make it so fucked up. Yes, it's quite clear that she was at least witness to some heinous shit in her time there and is lying about it (although there are some witnesses claiming she was part of that weird all female police force), but the salient fact is that she was only 15 when groomed. I genuinely feel very sorry for her. Maybe I'm a soft touch. She didn't have the tools at the age of 15 to say, 'this is fucked, i want no part of it'.

I definitely dont get the vibe from her that she's anything more than an impressionable young woman thrust into the most bonkers situation you could imagine.

 

[_Russ_]

No we didn't all know this, you can speak for yourself and I can speak for myself. It is glamourised and seen as cool - as well as being harmless and fun and rebellious too. I think a lot of people only realise the actual harm caused by drugs later in life - i.e. the real cost of the cocaine trade, and even the cannabis trade, which is seen as a harmless drug.

anyway, don't want this to turn into a derailment. But FACT, teenagers don't quite understand what they're getting into A LOT of the time, if they did the world would be very different. Rape and murder are black and white - going to live a life somewhere else, somewhere my friend who's already there says is great, is a whole different thing.(Shamima & friends already had a friend there who encouraged her to go join her)

GTFO, wanting to get stoned is in no way comparable to wanting to join a muderous sect that kills and tortures your fellow humans

 

[cesare]

I only know what I've read on this thread.

That's fair enough and tbh I keep catching up with this thread only to forget loads of facts from various points throughout. So I won't ask you anymore. I'm not particularly attached to the outcome as far as this person is concerned, I'm sure there's much to say about this young person's vulnerability albeit in context of her behaviour. There's much I find morally and ethically execrable about this situation. But I'd like to understand the legal position as opposed to the justice, moral and or ethical one before formulating my opinion.

 

[belboid]

As I understand it, Bangladeshi automatic citizenship is fairly similar to Ireland's? (Some expert can put me right if I've misunderstood, happy to concede if I've got it wrong.). But it's that sort of automatic which is subject to an application process against set criteria?

So is Bangladesh saying that the UK courts have got it wrong, she doesn't have automatic citizenship in Bangladesh in a similar way to Ireland. Or is Bangladesh saying that they won't extend its citizenship to her, because behaviour etc (and with point about decision-making ability at 15 before frontal brain fully matured etc). In which case it's Bangladesh that should be drawing the opprobrium surely? Because it would be its actions leaving her stateless, not the UK's.

The argument is that she could not safely return there as 'she would run a real risk of being tortured.' The judge accepted that, but said it didn't matter as no one was saying she should be sent there.

 

[Joe Chi Min]

Fuck the technicalities.
I know the groupthink in here is that anyone sufficently removed from the white male Gammon stereotype should automatically be given a shitload of benefit of the doubt but evil cunts come in all shapes, sizes, colours, creeds and sexes.

Bravo

 

[littlebabyjesus]

Fuck the technicalities.
I know the groupthink in here is that anyone sufficently removed from the white male Gammon stereotype should automatically be given a shitload of benefit of the doubt but evil cunts come in all shapes, sizes, colours, creeds and sexes.

Not sure what thread you're reading. I've explicitly stated that she should face consequences if she comes back here. I also think the stripping of her citizenship was a disgusting thing to do. I think she was young and she was groomed, and also that this doesn't exonerate her of all responsibility. I don't think the UK govt should be able to strip anyone's citizenship in this manner. It's a messy situation in many respects, but the UK govt's actions are one of the clear bits. They're clearly out of order. Nobody should ever have their ethnicity or their youth weaponised against them like that.

 

[Magnus McGinty]

Fuck the technicalities.
I know the groupthink in here is that anyone sufficently removed from the white male Gammon stereotype should automatically be given a shitload of benefit of the doubt but evil cunts come in all shapes, sizes, colours, creeds and sexes.

This is the auto position of libs. And then I’d rail against it for that reason. I’ve softened my icy heart though. She shouldn’t be stateless. It’s a punishment without any protections that punishments have.

 

[Spymaster]

You'd better have a careful look at your ancestry and look up the laws of any countries you might be connected to purely by ancestry if you want to ensure your British citizenship is secure ...

Or just not join a terrorist, murder, rapey, genocide cult.

 

[JimW]

AFAICS it's a shitty little hand-washing exercise that sets a dangerous precedent. It's not about her specifically.