Bristol Post apologises for 'Faces of Evil' front page 21 years ago

[8ball]

pardon?
google some more for yourself then, til you find a satisfactory (for you) answer

Assuming there is one.
Your post had nothing to do with the questions I was asking.

The problem is that a lot of these arguments are phrased fairly exclusively within a social context of black people and white people in America, without actually mentioning that they are specific to that social context. For that reason, it's going to look wonky for people who live outside that context.

It's also problematic that a binary is assumed, which for me echoes that old "one drop" nonsense.

 

[8ball]

Can white people not be racist?

Corollaries might be:

Can a mixed race person not be racist?
Can a black person who has found a comfortable position in the ruling class of this country not be racist?

 

[8ball]

It's sick really isn't it? I cant believe this editor has thought through their own negative associations with this comparison. Fucking hell! Then goes on to attempt an apology and give reasoning yet...why should I forget that they still associate Black faces with slavery...why should anyone trust that despite their call to move on and celebrate progression when they themselves clearly haven't?

Being charitable, it might relate to some wording used by objectors at the time.

Or, less charitably, it might be down to someone who has been passed snippets of wording to use, but isn't quite sure what they're meant to be apologising for and has clumsily tried to tie it together.

 

[Treacle Toes]

How do the Irish and European Jews fit into this?

Well they’re white so presumably they’re simultaneously racists and victims of racism.

It’s not for me to answer questions that I posed to you.

You seem to think it's up to Mation to answer every question you have of her.

Also, given that your argument is that Black people can be the victims and perpetrators of racism your questions are odd. Surely what's good for one is good for others in your mind?

It's as if you are so busy policing these threads, demanding Black people get no special treatment in anyone's thinking or reasoning that you can't see the inherent hypocrisy and inconsistency of your own thinking/position and loaded questioning.

 

[8ball]

You seem to think it's up to Mation to answer every question you have of her.

Mation has acted with good faith and humility throughout this thread, and kept it civilised imo.
I was expecting the mother of all bunfights to ensue.

 

[Magnus McGinty]

You seem to think it's up to Mation to answer every question you have of her.

Also, given that your argument is that Black people can be the victims and perpetrators of racism your questions are odd. Surely what's good for one is good for others in your mind?

It's as if you are so busy policing these threads, demanding Black people get no special treatment in anyone's thinking or reasoning that you can't see the inherent hypocrisy and inconsistency of your own thinking/position and loaded questioning.

I don’t expect anything from her; it’s entirely her choice should she choose to engage.
And I’m not ‘demanding’ anyone do anything. I just don’t happen to agree with the theory given although open to having my mind changed.

 

[Treacle Toes]

Mation has acted with good faith and humility throughout this thread, and kept it civilised imo.
I was expecting the mother of all bunfights to ensue.

Yes she has, even when others are making demands that she answer loaded, sneering questions. I was just pointing out that is rather arrogant to be making such demands.

 

[Treacle Toes]

I don’t expect anything from her; it’s entirely her choice should she choose to engage.
And I’m not ‘demanding’ anyone do anything. I just don’t happen to agree with the theory given although open to having my mind changed.

So answer the question for yourself. The way you've set it up is that you don't think those groups can be perps and victims, at the same time you are arguing that Black people can be... Rather discriminatory thinking isn't it?

 

[Magnus McGinty]

Yes she has, even when others are making demands that she answer loaded, sneering questions. I was just pointing out that is rather arrogant to be making such demands.

I haven’t given loaded sneering questions. Black people aren’t the only ones to have suffered colonialism/racism so any theory given applies to others also.

 

[Magnus McGinty]

So answer the question for yourself. The way you've set it up is that you don't think those groups can be perps and victims, at the same time you are arguing that Black people can be... Rather discriminatory thinking isn't it?

The terms in which Mation has framed the debate, they can’t be both perps and victims no. Hence why she went quiet and you jumped up and started accusing me of stuff.

 

[8ball]

Yes she has, even when others are making demands that she answer loaded, sneering questions. I was just pointing out that is rather arrogant to be making such demands.

She is making a point that needs a little context in my view (which she has largely provided).

If those who are reacting using a simple and very commonly understood definition of racism are coming across with some incredulity, it's understandable. It would be best if they reciprocated the good faith, though.

 

[8ball]

The terms in which Mation has framed the debate, they can’t be both perps and victims no. Hence why she went quiet and you jumped up and started accusing me of stuff.

I'd say you can certainly be both. My mother is half black and has internalised a lot of stuff, as have others in my extended family.

 

[Magnus McGinty]

I'd say you can certainly be both. My mother is half black and has internalised a lot of stuff, as have others in my extended family.

It isn’t about what you and I think. It’s about the theory that’s being used to explain why black people cant be racist but white people almost always are.

 

[8ball]

It isn’t about what you and I think. It’s about the theory that’s being used to explain why black people cant be racist but white people almost always are.

It's complicated. I get the 'perks' of whiteness almost all of the time. The idea that this in itself is being racist is bound to get people's backs up.

 

[Magnus McGinty]

It's complicated. I get the 'perks' of whiteness almost all of the time. The idea that this in itself is being racist is bound to get people's backs up.

There’s white people who don’t get the ‘perks’ of whiteness. I imagine that gets backs up too.

 

[8ball]

There’s white people who don’t get the ‘perks’ of whiteness. I imagine that gets backs up too.

Not sure what you mean here. Not being subject to a particular means of oppression does not make you invulnerable to other means.

 

[Magnus McGinty]

Not sure what you mean here. Not being subject to a particular means of oppression does not make you invulnerable to other means.

Which means terms like ‘white privilege’ aren’t fit for purpose.
Call me old fashioned but I prefer the argument that people are oppressed by capitalism - rather than stating white people have it easier than brown people regardless of the circumstances of either.

 

[emanymton]

I'm going to try and link to my post on the Britain Frist thread. Hope it works

Britain First

My general feeling is that it is not really about can 'x' be racist, but rather can 'y' experience rascism.

 

[likesfish]

that's one definition that may be useful in certain contexts but it isn't the commonly understood definition.
Demanding people accept your definition isn't going anywhere at all.
It all becomes a bit of an oppression Olympics that does nothing terribly useful. ID politics is useful when pointed at a specific issue when you try to use it too widespread it loses any use .

all white people are racist
ok if your going to be like that I'm going to carry on because it's obvious I cant do anything to help as I'm an evil white person and male and straight

 

[8ball]

all white people are racist
ok if your going to be like that I'm going to carry on because it's obvious I cant do anything to help as I'm an evil white person and male and straight

Maybe this is where emanymton's formulation helps.
It's not about you being evil and racist, it's about embedded social structures that lead to a background of disadvantage for people of colour.

So what you can do to help is show some solidarity in challenging the systems that lead to this injustice.

 

[Magnus McGinty]

Maybe this is where emanymton's formulation helps.
It's not about you being evil and racist, it's about embedded social structures that lead to a background of disadvantage for people of colour.

So what you can do to help is show some solidarity in challenging the systems that lead to this injustice.

Which is the point of socialism. Unfortunately the reverse isn’t true with idpol. Hence why it’s white people who are the problem and not capitalism.

 

[8ball]

Unfortunately the reverse isn’t true with idpol. Hence why it’s white people who are the problem and not capitalism.

Can you flesh that out a bit? The "the reverse isn't true" bit.

Furthermore, can you imagine a society without capitalism that could still harbour racism?

 

[Magnus McGinty]

Can you flesh that out a bit? The "the reverse isn't true" bit.

Furthermore, can you imagine a society without capitalism that could still harbour racism?

The reverse isn’t true because if you’re not a socialist (and I mean this in it’s true sense, not Corbynism) then presumably you’re happy with capitalism, it’s just racism that’s the problem.
Then you have to look at why racism developed and who it serves. What purpose would it serve under socialism?

 

[8ball]

The reverse isn’t true because if you’re not a socialist (and I mean this in it’s true sense, not Corbynism) then presumably you’re happy with capitalism, it’s just racism that’s the problem.
Then you have to look at why racism developed and who it serves. What purpose would it serve under socialism?

Capitalism and socialism aren't the only political arrangements that can exist.

edit: I'd also dispute that racism cannot happen under socialism.

 

[likesfish]

Cuba sending more black conscripts to angola than lighter skinned conscripts being a prime example*


* the plan might have been that they'd be less obvious targets/ cubans but not really fair if your a conscript.


Ipol is useful if aimed at specific problems as a lens to see the whole of society through it fails.
E.g. Making sure theres a decent late safe night transport back to halls after a popular lgbt club night due to an incident of queer bashing perfectly reasonable to use identy politics to identify and solve that problem

A nationwide LGBT Transport policy would be stupid.

But a nationwide LGBT policy reguarding health care might be useful although L G B and T policys would be more useful as all the various groups have specific needs .

 

[Mation]

I’m testing your theory, not mine.

Ok, well you're not testing it very well! I'll do the thinking for you.

Yes it's possible for someone to be both favoured and oppressed by the same system. Favoured on grounds of colour in some circumstances and oppressed on grounds of ethnicity in others, for example. I can't think of any examples along the same dimension but happily ( ) there are many dimensions along which people can be oppressed.

 

[Mation]

The problem is that a lot of these arguments are phrased fairly exclusively within a social context of black people and white people in America, without actually mentioning that they are specific to that social context. For that reason, it's going to look wonky for people who live outside that context.

For white people, perhaps. People of colour don't seem to have too much trouble recognising it.

 

[ddraig]

the arguments MUST be acceptable to white people otherwise they are NOT valid or acceptable

 

[8ball]

For white people, perhaps. People of colour don't seem to have too much trouble recognising it.

All people of colour?

I know this is not the case.

 

[8ball]

the arguments MUST be acceptable to white people otherwise they are NOT valid or acceptable

Are you a white person?
Are you saying there is something intrinsic to white people that stops them accepting this argument?