Falklands 40 years on ..

[A380]

I watched the documentary, Tony Wilson really got a pasting didn't he? Came across like the classic stereotype chinless wonder. I was amazed how much his fellow officers laid into him.

I didn't realise how close it all came to disaster at times (and was an actual disaster in places), learnt a lot about the war. Sounded fucking horrible up on those mountains for the foot soldiers.

One thing it didn't touch on was the epic air raid organised by the RAF to bomb Stanley. It didn't make much impact but it was a hell of a thing to organise and carry out.

Operation Black Buck - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

The Operation Black Buck raids were staged from RAF Ascension Island, close to the Equator. The Vulcan was designed for medium-range missions in Europe and lacked the range to fly to the Falklands without refuelling several times. The RAF's tanker planes were mostly converted Handley Page Victor bombers with similar range, so they too had to be refuelled in the air. A total of eleven tankers were required for two Vulcans (one primary and one reserve), a daunting logistical effort as all aircraft had to use the same runway. The Vulcans carried either twenty-one 1,000-pound (450 kg) bombs internally or two or four Shrike anti-radar missiles externally. Of the five Black Buck raids flown to completion, three were against Stanley Airfield's runway and operational facilities, while the other two were anti-radar missions using Shrike missiles against a Westinghouse AN/TPS-43 long-range 3D radar in the Port Stanley area. Shrikes hit two of the less valuable and rapidly replaced secondary fire control radars, causing some casualties among the Argentine crews. One Vulcan was nearly lost when a fuel shortage forced it to land in Brazil.

Wasn't the point not to put one hole in the runway but to show the Government in Argentina that mainland targets were in range of UK aircraft? Even if they weren't really (The RAF having to get stuff out of museums to get enough V bombers airworthy for the raid. I agree with Spymaster Vulcan 607 is a great book.

 

[spitfire]

Wasn't the point not to put one hole in the runway but to show the Government in Argentina that main land targets were in range of UK aircraft? Even if they weren't really (The RAF having to get stuff out of museums to get enough V bombers airworthy for the raid. I agree with Spymaster Vulcan 607 is a great book.

I'm sure it put the wind up them.

 

[eatmorecheese]

The trouble with the Falklands debate is that all the decent political posters know that the Argentine position on it is a total loser, so they steer well clear of it. That just leaves the 'UK bad, everyone else good' clowns, who just aren't up to snuff, and get incinerated within seconds of posting. We need some new lefties!

The crux is that the idea of the right of self-determination of the inhabitants is essentially and anti-colonial position. Some on the broad left can tend to tie themselves in knots on this topic. The history and context is important, but it mixes in a short, bloody war and Thatcher's ascendancy as factors the British Left wrestle with.

These arguments don't change and will keep being revisited in the '50 years on' thread, out in 2032

 

[kebabking]

If you're interested in the depth of the relationship with Chile, read 809 by Rowland White.

Ewen Southby-Tailor is worth a read - he was an RM and working (iirc) on the Amphibious Staff, but had previously commanded NP8901 and had sailed around the Islands doing lots of mapping. It was he who had a screaming match with the Welsh Guards on Sir Galahad at Bluff Cove over whether equipment or people should be got off first - as he says, he was one Major, but the y were two - and so, sadly, 1WG moved their equipment off the ship first...

Hugo Bicheno is worth a read as well.

 

[Pickman's model]

If you're interested in the depth of the relationship with Chile, read 809 by Rowland White.

Ewen Southby-Tailor is worth a read - he was an RM and working (iirc) on the Amphibious Staff, but had previously commanded NP8901 and had sailed around the Islands doing lots of mapping. It was he who had a screaming match with the Welsh Guards on Sir Galahad at Bluff Cove over whether equipment or people should be got off first - as he says, he was one Major, but the y were two - and so, sadly, 1WG moved their equipment off the ship first...

Hugo Bicheno is worth a read as well.

Yeh I've a copy of est's falklands islands shores, very good

 

[Bahnhof Strasse]

I watched the documentary, Tony Wilson really got a pasting didn't he? Came across like the classic stereotype chinless wonder. I was amazed how much his fellow officers laid into him.

I didn't realise how close it all came to disaster at times (and was an actual disaster in places), learnt a lot about the war. Sounded fucking horrible up on those mountains for the foot soldiers.

One thing it didn't touch on was the epic air raid organised by the RAF to bomb Stanley. It didn't make much impact but it was a hell of a thing to organise and carry out.

Operation Black Buck - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

The Operation Black Buck raids were staged from RAF Ascension Island, close to the Equator. The Vulcan was designed for medium-range missions in Europe and lacked the range to fly to the Falklands without refuelling several times. The RAF's tanker planes were mostly converted Handley Page Victor bombers with similar range, so they too had to be refuelled in the air. A total of eleven tankers were required for two Vulcans (one primary and one reserve), a daunting logistical effort as all aircraft had to use the same runway. The Vulcans carried either twenty-one 1,000-pound (450 kg) bombs internally or two or four Shrike anti-radar missiles externally. Of the five Black Buck raids flown to completion, three were against Stanley Airfield's runway and operational facilities, while the other two were anti-radar missions using Shrike missiles against a Westinghouse AN/TPS-43 long-range 3D radar in the Port Stanley area. Shrikes hit two of the less valuable and rapidly replaced secondary fire control radars, causing some casualties among the Argentine crews. One Vulcan was nearly lost when a fuel shortage forced it to land in Brazil.

Have heard a number of accounts that the U.K. was around 10 days away from calling it quits, was very much not a certainty that we could take them back. And had a carrier been sunk the game would have ended right there.

 

[AmateurAgitator]

Foreign office wanted to hand the islands over in the 60s and 70s but the bennys didn't want to be part of a facist tyranny with a crap economy.

You seem to be saying that the Argentinian junta that took power in 1976 was fascist. It wasn't. It was a reactionary regime much like the Pinochet regime of Chile (it was not revolutionary - in a fascist sense). The Argie junta had no fascist ideology beyond homeland, faith and religion. It's also doubtful that they had a national rebirth myth because they only had so far to go back to and it wasn't far. It was a nasty, brutal, right-wing regime but not fascist (whereas Peronism is more complex but can be more accurately described as para-fascism). I think we should be more nuanced about stuff.

 

[kebabking]

The Navy was, to a large extent, shagged out by the end of the war - the RN sent 7 of its T42 anti-air warfare destroyers down south, by the day of the surrender 2 had been sunk, another had had a bomb go through her engineering spaces and she was under tow, and of the remaining four, only two had all of their critical combat systems running.

Invincible had to do a shaft change on the way back, if the war had lasted longer she wouldn't have been able to produce the speed necessary to get heavily loaded Harriers off her decks.

A close run thing indeed...

 

[spitfire]

The Navy was, to a large extent, shagged out by the end of the war - the RN sent 7 of its T42 anti-air warfare destroyers down south, by the day of the surrender 2 had been sunk, another had had a bomb go through her engineering spaces and she was under tow, and of the remaining four, only two had all of their critical combat systems running.

Invincible had to do a shaft change on the way back, if the war had lasted longer she wouldn't have been able to produce the speed necessary to get heavily loaded Harriers off her decks.

A close run thing indeed...

I was amazed how many ships were sunk, had totally passed me by.

 

[likesfish]

You seem to be saying that the Argentinian junta that took power in 1976 was fascist. It wasn't. It was a reactionary regime much like the Pinochet regime of Chile (it was not revolutionary - in a fascist sense). The Argie junta had no fascist ideology beyond homeland, faith and religion. It's also doubtful that they had a national rebirth myth because they only had so far to go back to and it wasn't far. It was a nasty, brutal, right-wing regime but not fascist (whereas Peronism is more complex but can be more accurately described as para-fascism). I think we should be more nuanced about stuff.

Tbf they liked strutting about in uniforms killing those that disagreed with them starting a war they mishandled Adolf would have fitted right in.
Although they did prefer Johnny Walker to Meth

 

[AmateurAgitator]

Tbf they liked strutting about in uniforms killing those that disagreed with them starting a war they mishandled Adolf would have fitted right in.
Although they did prefer Johnny Walker to Meth

Yep. And none of those things are components of fascism.

 

[Ming]

Tbf they liked strutting about in uniforms killing those that disagreed with them starting a war they mishandled Adolf would have fitted right in.
Although they did prefer Johnny Walker to Meth

I read a great book called Living with Drugs by Michael Gossop. In it i found out about the Nazis and Crystal meth. The drug affected the outcome of the war. How German troops on the retreat from Stalingrad were found to be have been walking on feet that were basically dead from frostbite. Also whether Hitler’s decision to break the Molotov-Ribbentrop pact was influenced by his meth use (and many other drugs). Good read.

 

[cupid_stunt]

I was 13. At school we all thought they were in Scotland. We were like 'what the fuck is Argentina invading Scotland for?!?'.

You weren't the only ones, I watched one of the Falkland's documentaries the other day, I laughed at an interview with one of the troops that thought exactly the same, and questioned WTF is Argentina doing invading Scotland.

 

[kebabking]

The 'why have the Argentines invaded Scotland?' thing is yet another indictment of our training and posture in 1982 - this was s UK overseas territory that was garrisoned, had had repeated threats made to it, had suffered incursions in recent years, and yet only the Navy knew where it was...

We barely knew anything about them - without a single RM officer who happened to be a sailing nut our knowledge of the coastline would be about zero and it's unlikely the choice of San Carlos would have been made, or if it had, only after a huge amount of time spent on surveying other locations by the SBS.

 

[Bahnhof Strasse]

The 'why have the Argentines invaded Scotland?' thing is yet another indictment of our training and posture in 1982 - this was s UK overseas territory that was garrisoned, had had repeated threats made to it, had suffered incursions in recent years, and yet only the Navy knew where it was...

We barely knew anything about them - without a single RM officer who happened to be a sailing nut our knowledge of the coastline would be about zero and it's unlikely the choice of San Carlos would have been made, or if it had, only after a huge amount of time spent on surveying other locations by the SBS.

Apparently even the SAS had virtually no idea about the place, they headed off as the advance party with the notion it was like the Brecon Beacons in autumn.

 

[kebabking]

Apparently even the SAS had virtually no idea about the place, they headed off as the advance party with the notion it was like the Brecon Beacons in autumn.

Yup. The RM and RN had a good appreciation because they provided the garrison, HMS Endurance, and the shore parties at South Georgia - and while they told the other units who went, It doesn't appear to have sunk in properly.

2 and 3 Para were relatively well equipped, not nearly as well as the RM, whose job at the time was Norway, but they were better off than the Guards and Gurkhas of 5 Bde, and the other units like Gunners and Sappers.

The whole thing was a deeply amateurish mess - which makes it both better and worse...

 

[Bahnhof Strasse]

The whole thing was a deeply amateurish mess - which makes it both better and worse...

Stops you overthinking things, just shit yer pants and get on with it...

 

[Chz]

I remember when it was 20 years on, some of the diplomatic murmurs had been released. The US thought the Brits were nuts and couldn't pull it off, and the Soviets were certain that they couldn't pull it off so they'd be awfully surprised if the Brits did. It spawned a long trend only now coming to an end for tiny little aircraft carriers with VTOLs on them.

 

[likesfish]

There were ncos in 3 queens who were still bitter that they had spent months in brecon as a spearhead battalion and the guards were sent from public duties in London.

 

[Bahnhof Strasse]

I remember when it was 20 years on, some of the diplomatic murmurs had been released. The US thought the Brits were nuts and couldn't pull it off, and the Soviets were certain that they couldn't pull it off so they'd be awfully surprised if the Brits did. It spawned a long trend only now coming to an end for tiny little aircraft carriers with VTOLs on them.

The Falklands and the Iranian embassy siege very much spread the idea that the British Army is a force to be reckoned with (current shower who post on here excepted, of course )

 

[Spymaster]

NASA's pissed-off Argentina

You've got to love that they have a political office Secretary for The Malvinas ...

 

[bellaozzydog]

There were ncos in 3 queens who were still bitter that they had spent months in brecon as a spearhead battalion and the guards were sent from public duties in London.

And how did that pan out for the Guards

Most reviews said they were a liability

 

[MickiQ]

NASA's pissed-off Argentina

You've got to love that they have a political office Secretary for The Malvinas ...

There are loads of places on the planet where two or more groups claim it belongs to them. Mostly such claims are as spurious as the Argentinian one to the Falklands, you can't really expect NASA to keep track of them all and print disclaimers on all their pictures.

 

[skyscraper101]

Wait what they're pissed off because NASA labelled the islands as “off the coast” of Argentina rather than being part of the country itself.

They really have to get over it. That's like someone getting irritated for labelling the Scilly islands as being off the coast of Britain.

 

[Spymaster]

Wait what they're pissed off because NASA labelled the islands as “off the coast” of Argentina rather than being part of the country itself.

They should have said "400 miles off the coast of Argentina", for added trollness.

 

[kebabking]

Argentine govt have cancelled yet another fast jet procurement competition.

It was between some dusted down, early model US F-16's, and Chinese/Pakistani supplied JF-17's.

Short term reaction is meh, longer term is that Argentina will only be able to get fighters if they are free, and that's likely to mean Chinese, with the attendant strings attached.

 

[Spymaster]

Argentine govt have cancelled yet another fast jet procurement competition.

It was between some dusted down, early model US F-16's, and Chinese/Pakistani supplied JF-17's.

Short term reaction is meh, longer term is that Argentina will only be able to get fighters if they are free, and that's likely to mean Chinese, with the attendant strings attached.

Isn't the JF17 the crap one that nobody can get parts for?

 

[kebabking]

Isn't the JF17 the crap one that nobody can get parts for?

Yeah...

 

[Chz]

Isn't the JF17 the crap one that nobody can get parts for?

I just had to look it up... The old MiG-29 Klimov, but with extra power in return for half the operating life? How is that a good idea?

 

[kebabking]

I just had to look it up... The old MiG-29 Klimov, but with extra power in return for half the operating life? How is that a good idea?

Cheap? Only half as much to go wrong?