Falklands 40 years on ..

[ska invita]

in those murky days of sticking flags in the ground and plaques on rocks one claim is as spurious as the next. geographical proximity counts for a lot, including uninhabited islands + not wanting to have a foreign military outpost on your patch is also fair enough.
that said history is what it is and it looks like the falklands are becoming a more truly independent place culturally - not just a british outpost
of course the question of military bases remains and could become a live issue at any moment of crisis, and its enough to be Argentinian and look at a map and know something isnt right

as has been said, prewar all the signs were britain would let it slip into Argentinian control - it would make a lot of sense if that reality came to pass again at some point in the future - perhaps changing demographics might speed that along

 

[Spymaster]

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[Spymaster]

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[Spymaster]

in those murky days of sticking flags in the ground and plaques on rocks one claim is as spurious as the next. geographical proximity counts for a lot, including uninhabited islands + not wanting to have a foreign military outpost on your patch is also fair enough

I disagree. Take a look at a map showing any nations colonial adventures and we see that geographical proximity counts for very little. How far is South America from Spain? The Argentine proximity argument has never been about having a British military outpost on their doorstep. Prior to their invasion it was just a handful of soldiers sat there getting bored.

as has been said, prewar all the signs were britain would let it slip into Argentinian control - it would make a lot of sense if that reality came to pass again at some point in the future - perhaps changing demographics might speed that along

It was a lot more than signs. There were active discussions for years before the war where the UK were perfectly happy to share, if not cede, control of the islands but all the proposals were rejected by Argentina. Changing demographics may well affect the future of the islands, along with Argentina not being what it used to be. If the islanders vote to become Argentinian then good luck to them but unless there's a huge influx of Argentinians, I think it's far more likely they'd vote to remain British or for independence. In the meantime it's worth remembering that very little blood was spilt over the Falkland Islands, until Argentina caused it to be.

 

[Pickman's model]

None of the above

But it's a polarising topic and lefties have a tendency to take the "my enemy's enemy ..." view of it, so just pointing out that it's a bit more complicated than that.

Whereas you wait to find out my view on a matter then automatically assume the opposed position

 

[Pickman's model]

I disagree. Take a look at a map showing any nations colonial adventures and we see that geographical proximity counts for very little. How far is South America from Spain? The Argentine proximity argument has never been about having a British military outpost on their doorstep. Prior to their invasion it was just a handful of soldiers sat there getting bored.



It was a lot more than signs. There were active discussions for years before the war where the UK were perfectly happy to share, if not cede, control of the islands but all the proposals were rejected by Argentina.

Changing demographics may well affect the future of the islands, along with Argentina not being what it used to be. If the people vote to become Argentinian then good luck to them. Unless there's a huge influx of Argentinians, I think it's far more likely they'd vote for independence though. In the meantime it's worth remembering that very little blood was spilt over the Falkland Islands, until Argentina caused it to be.

Apart from the battle of the Falkland Islands in the first world war

 

[Sasaferrato]

She's right about it being left ungarrisoned by the Brits in 1774 but it was less that they felt "it wasn't worth the money and went home" and more to do with the looming American War of Independence, and the refocussing of priorities. The plaque that they left behind sounds laughable but it was the way sovereignty was asserted by the convention of the day. The Argentinian claim ignores the entirety of what happened in the 18th century and begins with the Brits reclaiming the islands in 1833 (handy that, because an independent Argentina didn't exist until 1816).

I enjoyed that. It was a good read. Cheers.

1891.

 

[angusmcfangus]

Coming from a Naval / Military town Plymouth its going into overdrive to remember it.

Falklands War photos and memories unearthed 40 years on

The Falklands 40 special is a 48-page anniversary publication available exclusively now

www.plymouthherald.co.uk

Thing about the war imo is did the working class of Plymouth get rewarded for being loyal?

No.

I'd already left Plymouth by then. But my brother stayed. Falklands saved Thatcher. Plymouth ended up as one of those left behind Brexit voting towns.

When I grew up there in 60/70 it was poor but people had secure jobs in Dockyard etc.

Now I recently looked at stats for deprivation. The Council wards around the docks are in top 10% and 20% most deprived in the country. Going to visit now and it looks more poor than it was in 60s/ 70s.

Even after WW2 the land fit for heroes seemed a long time coming in 60s. My street still used the wash house at end of our road as most houses didn't have bathrooms.

Brought back happy memories of visiting my auntie and uncle and my 3 cousins in the early 70s in Plymouth.
They all worked in the naval dockyard, and I was allowed to accompany one of them to his work on a naval tug "The Alsation.
They lived I think in the keat street flats and I had my first ever pint in a pub in the grapes pub, aged about 11.
Nothing fancy but good time's.

 

[eatmorecheese]

in those murky days of sticking flags in the ground and plaques on rocks one claim is as spurious as the next. geographical proximity counts for a lot, including uninhabited islands + not wanting to have a foreign military outpost on your patch is also fair enough.
that said history is what it is and it looks like the falklands are becoming a more truly independent place culturally - not just a british outpost
of course the question of military bases remains and could become a live issue at any moment of crisis, and its enough to be Argentinian and look at a map and know something isnt right

as has been said, prewar all the signs were britain would let it slip into Argentinian control - it would make a lot of sense if that reality came to pass again at some point in the future - perhaps changing demographics might speed that along
View attachment 316339

I loved that article you posted above, btw. It was human, and relatable.

I think it's easy to look at that map and lose sight of the scale. In terms of area, the Falklands isn't a small place, albeit sparsely populated. Argentina is a vast country, but iirc two-thirds of the population live in Buenos Aires and it's environs.

The best result for the place imo would be increasing autonomy, a climbing population and strengthening links to both Chile and Argentina, with economic benefits to both countries through peaceful coexistence and mutual respect. The best result would be long-term planning to move in this direction from Stanley and Buenos Aires, not London and Buenos Aires. And at the pace of the islanders, secure in the knowledge that they will not be militarily disturbed.

 

[ska invita]

The best result for the place imo would be increasing autonomy, a climbing population and strengthening links to both Chile and Argentina, with economic benefits to both countries through peaceful coexistence and mutual respect. The best result would be long-term planning to move in this direction from Stanley and Buenos Aires, not London and Buenos Aires. And at the pace of the islanders, secure in the knowledge that they will not be militarily disturbed.

Im with you - independence is the way and if the economics allows it then full autonomy - but i fear the military angle will never disappear .. .theres no particular military stress in that region that should involve the islands right now, but who knows what the future will bring.
I dont know much about island 'states' - are there any that arent a protectorate of a large state? id be surprised if so.

i read the wiki history of Nauru the other day - so grim - Germans, Japanese and Australians have all had a go at fucking it over

Nauru - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

 

[Gramsci]

They always were, the south west of England due to geography has always been deprived, a big natural harbour at the entrance to the Atlantic is why Plymouth exists as more than a fishing port in the first place, but since the 1940’s that’s not really been an issue and Portsmouth can handle the needs of the UK’s surface fleet, we are economically constrained with our military yet we have kept Plymouth going as it is known how utterly fucked the place would be without a bunch of pissed up wankers fighting and whoring their way up and down Union Street of an evening.

Not sure who the we is but I don't think we are disagreeing.

I wouldn't blame it on geography. Plymouth suffered terrible during WW2. What I'm saying is that Plymouth ordinary people have done everything to deserve better. Played an important role in WW2 and played a role in Falklands war.

But my view is that like a lot of small towns outside of London bubble it's been neglected. That "doing their bit" didn't mean they got much in return. The way that towns like this have still high deprivation is due to politcal decisions not geography.

Also growing up there my experience was that it was town divided by class. In hindsight that was a good education on a practical level. I grew up in Barbican. Passed 11 plus and Plymouth College entrance exam. Secondary school met the other half. Officers sons etc.

What I learnt was that the services in this country were divided by class. That the services played an important symbolic role in underling the "natural order" . The Tory Party being the natural party of government and "socialism" ( the Labour party) being alien to the British way of life. This is what I was taught in early 70s. Supporting Queen and Country and being there to learn how to run the country was the point of education.

So no I don't think the Falklands War did anything positive for Plymouth. I see its going to be remembered there. But doubt in any critical fashion.

 

[Gramsci]

Looking up Falklands War and surprised to see satire on it ( now out of print) by Raymond Briggs.

This has detail and some pics of his illustrations.

It's scathing about the Argentinian dictator and Thatcher.

Article says for a while it was a best seller in 1984 when it was published.

by that time Thatcher was a love her or hate her figure. Politics were quite different then.

Interesting how the war was viewed in popular media back then.

The reviewer links it back to history of British satire.

Raymond Briggs – The Old Iron Woman

I grew up in the 1980s, a child of Thatcher raised to loathe the monstrous metal mother. Not that I needed much prompting, her regular appearances on TV were enough to send me scuttling behind the …

tygertale.com

opening sets up the lead characters as grotesque and gargantuan metal monsters, dripping blood, leaking money and shooting fire out of their tits. The first half is totally berserk, and very reminiscent of Ralph Steadman. In fact it has a pedigree going right back to the beginning of satire. The images of Galtieri and Thatcher leading boatloads of tiny soldiers towards each other is something Swift could have come up with for Gulliver's Travels.

 

[ska invita]

one other thing about Falklands autonomy, that new yorker article said the new prosperity is based on fishing rights granted by the UK post-war IIRC, so already thats both a hard tie and potential future point of conflict.

 

[Spymaster]

one other thing about Falklands autonomy, that new yorker article said the new prosperity is based on fishing rights granted by the UK post-war IIRC, so already thats both a hard tie and potential future point of conflict.

I don't think it's something that's likely to be an issue. The UKG isn't going to negotiate on the future of the islands unless the islanders want them to. The referendum in 2013 had 99% of them wanting to remain British. I'd say the possible dilution of that by non-British immigration would be minimal. There would need to be about 3000 people go to live there, get voting rights, and vote to be ruled by Argentina. Why would they do that? As the New Yorker piece points out, most of the people who have gone there since the war have taken a lot of trouble to live in one of the most inhospitable environments on the planet because they've been attracted by the relative prosperity and love of a lifestyle that is specifically afforded by British sovereignty. Why would they vote to get rid of the very thing that brought them there in the first place?

 

[Spymaster]

The best result for the place imo would be increasing autonomy, a climbing population and strengthening links to both Chile and Argentina, with economic benefits to both countries through peaceful coexistence and mutual respect. The best result would be long-term planning to move in this direction from Stanley and Buenos Aires, not London and Buenos Aires. And at the pace of the islanders, secure in the knowledge that they will not be militarily disturbed.

With respect, who are you to tell the Falkland Islanders what's "best"?

They've spoken very loudly and very clearly on the matter.

Surely what's best is for their wishes to be respected?

 

[eatmorecheese]

With respect, who are you to tell the Falkland Islanders what's "best"?

They've spoken very loudly and very clearly on the matter.

Surely what's best is for their wishes to be respected?

Well, quite. They are best placed to decide that, and their relationship with the region. Apologies if that wasn't clear. The onus is on Argentina to respect that.

 

[likesfish]

Argentinas gone to the IMF again.
Canada tolerates a French owned and controlled island 25 km off shore.

Falklands 400km from Argentina is a crime that echoes through the centuries .

Foreign office wanted to hand the islands over in the 60s and 70s but the bennys didn't want to be part of a facist tyranny with a crap economy.

If Argentina lived up to its potential it wouldn't need the falklands as a distraction.

 

[chilango]

but the bennys didn't want to be part of a facist tyranny with a crap economy.

I thought they voted overwhelmingly to stay British?




I'll get my coat.

 

[Spymaster]

Argentinas gone to the IMF again.
Canada tolerates a French owned and controlled island 25 km off shore.

Falklands 400km from Argentina is a crime that echoes through the centuries .

Foreign office wanted to hand the islands over in the 60s and 70s but the bennys didn't want to be part of a facist tyranny with a crap economy.

If Argentina lived up to its potential it wouldn't need the falklands as a distraction.

I knew that soldiers stationed there called them Bennys but was amused to find out (courtesy of Ska's NY article) that after the troops were banned from calling them Bennys, they became Stills.

Still a Benny

 

[Pickman's model]

With respect, who are you to tell the Falkland Islanders what's "best"?

They've spoken very loudly and very clearly on the matter.

Surely what's best is for their wishes to be respected?

If they wanted you to jump off a bridge, would you respect that wish of theirs?

 

[Spymaster]

If they wanted you to jump off a bridge, would you respect that wish of theirs?

Only if they let me do it with a Roman candle up my arse.

 

[Pickman's model]

Only if they let me do it with a Roman candle up my arse.

Just the one?

 

[DaveCinzano]

Just the one?

He's not a monster

 

[likesfish]

Was saying how odd the Falklands is and the Islanders are a bit strange.
When somebody said actually I grew up in the islands.
Everything he says is true

 

[ska invita]

Really interesting

Argentina criticises UK refusal to talk about future of Falklands

Foreign minister calls for improvement in bilateral relations 40 years after conflict

www.theguardian.com

includes the fact that the British government dont allow commercial flights between Argentina and the Falklands

 

[Bahnhof Strasse]

Really interesting

Argentina criticises UK refusal to talk about future of Falklands

Foreign minister calls for improvement in bilateral relations 40 years after conflict

www.theguardian.com

includes the fact that the British government dont allow commercial flights between Argentina and the Falklands

Apart from the flights that fly from Argentina to the Falklands you mean?

 

[ska invita]

Apart from the flights that fly from Argentina to the Falklands you mean?

im sure there are some occasional ones but the quote is this:

He says his government has presented proposals that would be beneficial, such as the re-establishment of regular flights between the Falklands and Argentina. “More flights mean more trade, more tourism and more dialogue, as we have had in the past,” he says, but so far there has been no clear response from the UK to a request to reopen flights.

 

[Spymaster]

Really interesting

Argentina criticises UK refusal to talk about future of Falklands

Foreign minister calls for improvement in bilateral relations 40 years after conflict

www.theguardian.com

includes the fact that the British government dont allow commercial flights between Argentina and the Falklands

Well it's not really interesting at all is it?

Nothing there that we don't know, just another Argentinian politician having the same old whine we've heard forever.

And the flights between the islands and Argentina were suspended because of Covid, not out of cuntitude, and are due to be restored.

 

[Bahnhof Strasse]

im sure there are some occasional ones but the quote is this:

He says his government has presented proposals that would be beneficial, such as the re-establishment of regular flights between the Falklands and Argentina. “More flights mean more trade, more tourism and more dialogue, as we have had in the past,” he says, but so far there has been no clear response from the UK to a request to reopen flights.

Like so many remote places, Covid has screwed travel, it is getting ready to start again, provisionally on 11th June with this one...

 

[ska invita]

Like so many remote places, Covid has screwed travel, it is getting ready to start again, provisionally on 11th June with this one...

View attachment 316739

Looks like a great victory for the Argentinean government. May there be many morel