Brexit or Bremain - Urban votes

[DotCommunist]

Can Vote Remain campaigners who get the usual blind rage from Brexiters please now follow government guidelines
Terrorism and national emergencies - GOV.UK

recon you can go any lower? Give it a go.

 

[weltweit]

.. However, I will take your silence re. housing, access to the law etc etc as some level of agreement about the current direction of travel.

Ok, perhaps I will bite. What about access to law? how has the EU affected that?

 

[weltweit]

Same, if you need them same day you phone between 8 and 9 and you get a morning slot. If you need an appointment for something non-urgent it takes a week or two and you'll see em in the afternoon.

Someone here just called this am, saw their GP an hour later, was diagnosed and received medicine immediately afterwards. Pretty good local service.

 

[DotCommunist]

Ok, perhaps I will bite. What about access to law? how has the EU affected that?

its that it hasn't you dollop. Did the legal aid cuts pass you by? so if brave guardian of our rights the EU is so good how come they didn't say a damn word when the right to a decent defence in court for people who can't pay?
Legal Aid Act has denied justice to the most vulnerable. It must be reviewed | Letters

and st Gove of Toad Hall called time on a second wave of legal aid cuts, thusly demonstrating that once again they threaten three steps forward then take two back. But are still ahead by one step now.

 

[8den]

 

[Dowie]

i asked you what the issues were for you and all i get back is a load of flannel which boils down to bugger all. this being the case, perhaps you should stop posting on this thread until you've something cogent to say.

No I'm just not getting drawn into a load of tit for tat bullshit with you, you've got the free time to post crap for hours on end here I've not - if I did I might get involved with a wider debate on the issues concerning leaving or remaining in the EU but they're not relevant to the point I was making and so I'm not going to go down that route.

 

[D'wards]

Confucius say Cameron may well resign if its a Brexit - hmmm

 

[Louis MacNeice]

Ok, perhaps I will bite. What about access to law? how has the EU affected that?

Please read what I wrote. You said the status quo isn't so bad. I pointed out a number of ways in which I thought things were getting worse; including access to the legal system...or do you think that's not so bad? I didn't say the EU was directly responsible for the particular elements of this state of affairs...the key was to challenge your rather miopic and self satisfied assertion that things aren't so bad.

Having done that I then went onto to state the obvious; i.e. that the status quo is very much pro capital and that the EU was set up protect and continues to encourage the interests of capital. In short it's very reason for being is to promote a set of relationships I fundamentally disagree with, albeit ones that you consider not so bad. We want different things; the EU is one of many impediments to the things I want, while it seems to meet your needs pretty satisfactorily.

So go ahead and vote remain, because after all it's not so bad, but please don't try to pretend that a vote for leave is an attack on what would once have been called progressive politics.

Cheers - Louis MacNeice

 

[weltweit]

its that it hasn't you dollop. Did the legal aid cuts pass you by? so if brave guardian of our rights the EU is so good how come they didn't say a damn word when the right to a decent defence in court for people who can't pay?
Legal Aid Act has denied justice to the most vulnerable. It must be reviewed | Letters

and st Gove of Toad Hall called time on a second wave of legal aid cuts, thusly demonstrating that once again they threaten three steps forward then take two back. But are still ahead by one step now.

Yes, that is interesting, I am in favour of Legal Aid, indeed I once benefitted from it myself, it should be available to people when they need representation. But you are saying the EU did not prevent its cutting, surely that is an example of UK government being left to get on with some issues that affect UK life. In this case it wasn't a good thing, but it goes to show surely that Westminster is now wholly monstered by Brussels.

 

[Pickman's model]

No I'm just not getting drawn into a load of tit for tat bullshit with you, you've got the free time to post crap for hours on end here I've not - if I did I might get involved with a wider debate on the issues concerning leaving or remaining in the EU but they're not relevant to the point I was making and so I'm not going to go down that route.

i asked you what the issues were for you. this was not a preliminary to a long drawn out exchange, i wanted to see how engaged you were with the factors at stake. now you've told me. thank you for proving yourself an empty vessel.

 

[smokedout]

Problem for me here is that the EU, shit as it is, all the criticisms of it as a capitalist club being entirely valid, isn't the worst of all possible worlds. A UK being driven by Atlanticists like Johnson and Gove, trying to out-neoliberalise the EU, is potentially even worse. And that's what I see on the table in front of me.

Am only halfway through this thread so apologies if this has been addressed but this is just horseshit and seems to be everywhere. It's horseshit fot two reasons, firstly the claim that a Johnson/Gove/Farage? take over is inevitable in the case of Brexit, and secondly that this is impossible - or that the EU will save us from it - in the case of Remain.

Fuck the clowns, look at who you're lining up with - Cameron, Blair, the IMF, Obama, the EU themselves, architects of neoliberalism, fortress Europe and racist war. You seriously believe that Cameron and Osborne are better than Boris and Gove? They are the same, cut from the same cloth, with the same aims and beliefs. Only difference is that Cameron/New Labour/US/EU/IMF alliance has better PR and more power. Gove, Boris and Farage, bring them fucking on, they look more beatable than the current set up.

 

[butchersapron]

Did anyone challenge the bragg on his quote invention last night?

 

[Dowie]

i asked you what the issues were for you. this was not a preliminary to a long drawn out exchange, i wanted to see how engaged you were with the factors at stake. now you've told me. thank you for proving yourself an empty vessel.

The issues for me have nothing to do with the point I was making which stands whether I'm for remain or leave and for any number of reasons, that is all... I know from past experience not to bother pandering to your requests especially when it has no relevance to what I posted.

 

[Pickman's model]

The issues for me have nothing to do with the point I was making which stands whether I'm for remain or leave and for any number of reasons, that is all... I know from past experience not to bother pandering to your requests especially when it has no relevance to what I posted.

you've made seven posts on this thread:

none of which show any engagement with the issues. you don't know anything about the issues, and i submit it's that which lies behind your reticence and not any affected reluctance to engage with me.

 

[weltweit]

Please read what I wrote. You said the status quo isn't so bad. I pointed out a number of ways in which I thought things were getting worse; including access to the legal system...or do you think that's not so bad? I didn't say the EU was directly responsible for the particular elements of this state of affairs...the key was to challenge your rather miopic and self satisfied assertion that things aren't so bad.

I am not self satisfied. I have seen companies relocate to cheaper locations leaving unemployment behind. And I have struggled to find work where once jobs came to me easily. My point about the status quo was perhaps ill judged. I am no fan of the EU but I am concerned that the UK maintain relations and work together extensively with its nearest neighbours and allies. My decision to vote remain is based on the idea that staying in the EU, imperfect as it is, is preferable to leaving, destabilising ourselves and our neighbours, distancing ourselves from the single market and beginning negotiations with a wider not very interested world.

Having done that I then went onto to state the obvious; i.e. that the status quo is very much pro capital and that the EU was set up protect and continues to encourage the interests of capital. In short it's very reason for being is to promote a set of relationships I fundamentally disagree with, albeit ones that you consider not so bad. We want different things; the EU is one of many impediments to the things I want, while it seems to meet your needs pretty satisfactorily.

I don't know what you want, but I feel a UK removed from the EU will be weaker in many ways, my vote is about the lesser of two evils, staying in and working to improve the EU from the inside for the UK and other EU members interests.

 

[brogdale]

Those Urbz who've employed 'the company you keep' line might care to look at the.....oh, you get it.

 

[redsquirrel]

destabilising ourselves and our neighbours, distancing ourselves from the single market

Yes, we wouldn't want to do anything to upset the market(s) would we.

Mind you, at least there's no pretence in this line, all power the market, liberalism clear for all to see. The same liberalism that is currently attacking workers and hitting the welfare state.

 

[weltweit]

Yes, we wouldn't want to do anything to upset the market(s) would we.

Mind you, at least there's no pretence in this line, all power the market, liberalism clear for all to see. The same liberalism that is currently attacking workers and hitting the welfare state.

redsquirrel I see you using this line repeatedly and using the word market as if it was the devil incarnate. Workers need somewhere to sell the product of their labours and such a place is called a market!

 

[redsquirrel]

And 2hats was complaining about people being called liberals.

 

[DotCommunist]

Did anyone challenge the bragg on his quote invention last night?

yes. I took issue with one line in particular and mentioned that. As for the rest well, bollocks to the fraud. Bowed his head to the queen and voted lib dem

 

[butchersapron]

redsquirrel I see you using this line repeatedly and using the word market as if it was the devil incarnate. Workers need somewhere to sell the product of their labours and such a place is called a market!

Tell me, where do workers ever have the products of their labour and access to markets in which to sell please.

 

[butchersapron]

yes. I took issue with one line in particular and mentioned that. As for the rest well, bollocks to the fraud. Bowed his head to the queen and voted lib dem

Was there any response though?

 

[two sheds]

And 2hats was complaining about people being called liberals.

I think you'll find that was me. I have two sheds but no hats.

 

[redsquirrel]

Tell me, where do workers ever have the products of their labour and access to markets in which to sell please.

Ask not what the market can do for you but what you do for the market.

 

[butchersapron]

Ask not what the market can do for you but what you do for the market.

V good!

 

[redsquirrel]

I think you'll find that was me. I have two sheds but no hats.

Apols (to 2hats as well)

But you can't complain about anyone calling the above tosh liberalism it's pretty much the incarnation of it.

 

[two sheds]

Well yes but I'm not keen on an increase in unemployment either if that were to happen. Is that a purely liberal concern?

 

[butchersapron]

Well yes but I'm not keen on an increase in unemployment either if that were to happen. Is that a purely liberal concern?

It's uniquely yours and those that you agree with.

 

[Louis MacNeice]

redsquirrel I see you using this line repeatedly and using the word market as if it was the devil incarnate. Workers need somewhere to sell the product of their labours and such a place is called a market!

Who does that? Most people sell their labour power (physical and mental).

We have no fundamental need to sell anything; what we do need are various goods and services and relationships.

Cheers - Louis MacNeice

 

[two sheds]

It's uniquely yours and those that you agree with.

Where did I say that?