Brexit or Bremain - Urban votes

[weltweit]

I still don't know. I'm going to vote on Gut feeling. I'm going to hover over the leave box and ask myself if I feel like i doing the right thing here.

Ouch, don't do that !! Leave is the disruptors option, there will be a hullabaloo and much gnashing of teeth if Britain votes leave !! Is the status quo so very bad?

 

[Dowie]

warsi said she left because of the xenophobia of the leave campaign and also because of the repeated lies being told: she referenced gove on turkey's accession to the eu on the today programme this morning. which you'd know if you'd been paying attention.

so what... my point was just because some arseholes are voting for the same side doesn't mean you change your view... this issues haven't changed

if the BNP suddenly supported a rise in the minimum wage should people campaign for the opposite?

 

[weltweit]

warsi said she left because of the xenophobia of the leave campaign and also because of the repeated lies being told: she referenced gove on turkey's accession to the eu on the today programme this morning. which you'd know if you'd been paying attention. the poster, which has been widely condemned, is again symptomatic, she said, of the lies from the leave campaign, suggesting all those people coming to the uk when that's not in fact the case.

Till she switched to remain I had no idea she had been a leaver, shows how much impact she had been having in the leave campaign.

 

[chilango]

Interestingly, or not, my part of Reading is a Green Party stronghold with Labour a fighting second. It's a mixed area. Where I live is tiny terraces and is w/c and lower middle families. Across the main road are the large semis worth half a million plus full of solidly m/c liberals. During elections Green and Labour posters appear all over. In this referendum there's been very few posters. Till now. Suddenly almost every house in the large semi area has a Remain poster in their window. But absolutely nothing in the streets around me.

Says something I think.

 

[butchersapron]

I guess it will have to.

Oh yeah, some people supporting the "destruction of not only the E.U., but also of Western political civilization.”. Not that many though.

 

[Pickman's model]

so what... my point was just because some arseholes are voting for the same side doesn't mean you change your view... this issues haven't changed

haven't they? what are the issues for you then?

as for the bnp campaigning for something, they're such a rump party i don't suppose anyone would notice.

 

[Pickman's model]

Till she switched to remain I had no idea she had been a leaver, shows how much impact she had been having in the leave campaign.

yeh i knew she was leave but she was wearing that grey man u strip

 

[weltweit]

.. people supporting the "destruction of not only the E.U., but also of Western political civilization.”. Not that many though.

Sometimes it does feel that way ..

 

[Dowie]

haven't they? what are the issues for you then?

as for the bnp campaigning for something, they're such a rump party i don't suppose anyone would notice.

various issues and irrelevant to the point - if you feel there is an issue particular to either campaign that has changed because of who else supports one side or the other then that is another matter, but I don't.

 

[andysays]

Oh yeah, some people supporting the "destruction of not only the E.U., but also of Western political civilization.”. Not that many though.

will that appear on the ballot paper, or do I need to write it in myself?

 

[Louis MacNeice]

Ouch, don't do that !! Leave is the disruptors option, there will be a hullabaloo and much gnashing of teeth if Britain votes leave !! Is the status quo so very bad?

In my life time the post 'post-war settlement' status quo, has seen a shift from labour to capital which has hurt the provision of housing, health care, access to the law, workers rights, income distribution and progressive taxation (to name a few areas...other people please feel free to add your own).

So the status quo, which the EU was designed and continues to defend and promote, is bad and promises worse. It is not the saviour of refugees, the protector of women's right and the champion of organised labour that some on the remain side would have us believe.

Opposing it can be the pro-working class, internationalist and humanitarian thing to do; where as it is very hard to see how support for the pro-capital, building fortress Europe EU could ever be.

Cheers - Louis MacNeice

 

[butchersapron]

will that appear on the ballot paper, or do I need to write it in myself?

You'll have to ask Herr Schauble.

 

[Pickman's model]

various issues and irrelevant to the point - if you feel there is an issue particular to either campaign that has changed because of who else supports one side or the other then that is another matter, but I don't.

yeh but that's because you've said that all the issues are irrelevant. you don't know what the issues are, do you? or you wouldn't come out with such guff.

 

[JuanTwoThree]

I'm hoping that the rift between Tory leavers and Tory remainers fucks over the party. I'm also hoping that people on the left with well-thought-out reasons for leaving and people on the left with well-thought-out reasons for remaining can continue the dialectical process. It is tempting to judge people by the company they keep: neither left-leavers nor left-remainers can be proud of every last person who supports their stance, though for different reasons from theirs.

I've been guilty of tarring leavers with that particular brush and I regret it.

I do take some solace in the fact that most of the non-revolutionary left in Europe (eg Podemos) is in favour of EU membership, with considerable reservations. I'd rather be judged by being ideologically close to them than by wanting the same thing as Tories do. By which token, leavers should be given the same chance to be judged by their association with principled Socialists who are leavers, rather than because they are going to vote with UKIP.

 

[weltweit]

In my life time the post 'post-war settlement' status quo, has seen a shift from labour to capital which has hurt the provision of housing, health care, access to the law, workers rights, income distribution and progressive taxation (to name a few areas...other people please feel free to add your own).

The NHS is excellent, why would you put it down? As to workers rights, the social chapter, paid holidays, parental leave, working time etc have come out of the EU, how much of that would a UK tory party have brought to the commons? .. not much or none at all would be my bet. And a UK tory party is what we are looking at, emboldened if they get a leave vote to tear up the "red tape" which they so fondly name workers rights.

So the status quo, which the EU was designed and continues to defend and promote, is bad and promises worse. It is not the saviour of refugees, the protector of women's right and the champion of organised labour that some on the remain side would have us believe.

More tory years, the likelihood of a Scottish vote to leave with all that means for reduced non tory MPs in Westminster, I see an ugly tory future which I am pretty sure neither you nor I want.
On refugees, Germany took a lot of refugees, it is the tories that are dragging their feet, but we have inward immigration and outward, we are not cut off from the world.

Opposing it can be the pro-working class, internationalist and humanitarian thing to do; where as it is very hard to see how support for the pro-capital, building fortress Europe EU could ever be.

Do you think there will be more or less UK jobs after a leave vote?

 

[Flavour]

I'm happy that the "non-revolutionary left" aka reformists aka capitalist apologists don't feel guilty about voting to remain in a supra-state capitalist trade block.

 

[Dowie]

yeh but that's because you've said that all the issues are irrelevant. you don't know what the issues are, do you? or you wouldn't come out with such guff.

No I'm just not getting drawn into a general debate on whether we should or shouldn't leave the EU as it would be rather time consuming, I'm still undecided and unlike you I don't have the free time to waste my life posting on here all day. My post concerned someone changing her mind on which side to vote for on the basis of disliking the campaign being run by other people supporting the same side - that is what I took issue with and that is what I felt was flawed.

 

[DotCommunist]

The NHS is excellent, why would you put it down?

in 2009 I could get an appmnt within a week. Now its five. I've repeated this so many times. Health and Social Care Act 2012. Where was the defender of rights EU there?

 

[chilango]

The NHS is excellent, why would you put it down? As to workers rights, the social chapter, paid holidays, parental leave, working time etc have come out of the EU, how much of that would a UK tory party have brought to the commons? .. not much or none at all would be my bet. And a UK tory party is what we are looking at, emboldened if they get a leave vote to tear up the "red tape" which they so fondly name workers rights.

All of these things come from workers' struggles regardless of the EU or not.

 

[weltweit]

in 2009 I could get an appmnt within a week. Now its five. I've repeated this so many times. Health and Social Care Act 2012. Where was the defender of rights EU there?

I find if I call my GP for a non urgent appointment it is a week or more in the future but if I need to see them urgently, I call first thing and ask for any cancellations. Usually I get seen pretty quickly that way.

 

[youngian]

Can Vote Remain campaigners who get the usual blind rage from Brexiters please now follow government guidelines
Terrorism and national emergencies - GOV.UK

 

[Pickman's model]

No I'm just not getting drawn into a general debate on whether we should or shouldn't leave the EU as it would be rather time consuming, I'm still undecided and unlike you I don't have the free time to waste my life posting on here all day. My post concerned someone changing her mind on which side to vote for on the basis of disliking the campaign being run by other people supporting the same side - that is what I took issue with and that is what I felt was flawed.

i asked you what the issues were for you and all i get back is a load of flannel which boils down to bugger all. this being the case, perhaps you should stop posting on this thread until you've something cogent to say.

 

[DotCommunist]

I find if I call my GP for a non urgent appointment it is a week or more in the future but if I need to see them urgently, I call first thing and ask for any cancellations. Usually I get seen pretty quickly that way.

I can get same day emergency appmnts too but its for one issue only, and I have many. Then you better make sure its before 9pm cos everyone else will have filled the slots in. Its a great service the NHS, but creaking. And we know why.

 

[two sheds]

I find if I call my GP for a non urgent appointment it is a week or more in the future but if I need to see them urgently, I call first thing and ask for any cancellations. Usually I get seen pretty quickly that way.

On average, though, response times have gone up which was the point DC was making.

 

[Artaxerxes]

I find if I call my GP for a non urgent appointment it is a week or more in the future but if I need to see them urgently, I call first thing and ask for any cancellations. Usually I get seen pretty quickly that way.

Same, if you need them same day you phone between 8 and 9 and you get a morning slot. If you need an appointment for something non-urgent it takes a week or two and you'll see em in the afternoon.

 

[weltweit]

All of these things come from workers' struggles regardless of the EU or not.

No argument with that except to add that concerted effort across the EU stands a chance of benefitting more people than just UK actions.

 

[gosub]

(I'm still seething about the shit that some have been doing here towards those of us who have been seriously looking at what possibilities there might be through a leave. Its really making me wonder whether to post on urban any more).

I actually think Urban is holding up quite well. We haven't been astro turfed - there is independent thought here. Compare it with facebook where discourse seems limited to sharing someone elses postcard of idea and then largely ignoring the responses (usually the people whom disagree explaining why)

 

[Louis MacNeice]

The NHS is excellent, why would you put it down? As to workers rights, the social chapter, paid holidays, parental leave, working time etc have come out of the EU, how much of that would a UK tory party have brought to the commons? .. not much or none at all would be my bet. And a UK tory party is what we are looking at, emboldened if they get a leave vote to tear up the "red tape" which they so fondly name workers rights.


More tory years, the likelihood of a Scottish vote to leave with all that means for reduced non tory MPs in Westminster, I see an ugly tory future which I am pretty sure neither you nor I want.
On refugees, Germany took a lot of refugees, it is the tories that are dragging their feet, but we have inward immigration and outward, we are not cut off from the world.


Do you think there will be more or less UK jobs after a leave vote?

1. I am not putting the NHS down; why would I as a user of its services, a parent, the child of a couple in their 80s and an educator of nurses. I'm putting down the attacks on a free at the point of care, universalist NHS...or have you missed those?

2. Your limited view of workers rights is telling; what has the EU done to defend the rights of organised labour which we used to enjoy let alone promote any notion of international labour solidarity.

However, I will take your silence re. housing, access to the law etc etc as some level of agreement about the current direction of travel.

What is even more telling is your doubly blinkered view that all we can look forward to is Tory governments and that change comes through either Westminster or the EU. It is such a weirdly mismatched belief in parliamentary democracy and bureaucratic efficiency that perhaps your implicit dismissal of the right of the Scots to decide on their own future isn't that surprising (you do know they may well vote to go which ever way the referendum ends up?).

As to your last point, I'll just refer you to Mr R Tressell as to why more work isn't the panacea you seem to believe it is.

Cheers - Louis MacNeice

 

[chilango]

No argument with that except to add that concerted effort across the EU stands a chance of benefitting more people than just UK actions.

That would be true whether we were in the EU or not. Capital and labour are both transnational (or should that be supranational?) entities.

My point is that membership of the EU (or not) is a red herring as far as labour forcing strategic concessions from capital.

It's relevant when discussing democratic mechanisms for change etc. But that's another thing.

 

[skyscraper101]

I just don't want to queue in the non-EU passport lanes when I fly from the UK to other European airports.