Brexit or Bremain - Urban votes

[redsquirrel]

(I'm still seething about the shit that some have been doing here towards those of us who have been seriously looking at what possibilities there might be through a leave. Its really making me wonder whether to post on urban any more).

Just wanted to echo Libertad's post. U75 would be poorer without you.

 

[DotCommunist]

Hold on Steth, I value your posts and would miss you. youngian is just the shit on your shoe, brush them off.

agreed

 

[two sheds]

This, for me, is the most relevant/significant bit for what we're discussing on this thread

"But this masks the most serious sense of the socialist use, which is the historically accurate observation that liberalism is a doctrine based on INDIVIDUALIST theories of man and society and is thus in fundamental conflict not only with SOCIALIST but with most strictly SOCIAL theories. The further observation, that liberalism is the highest form of thought developed within BOURGEOIS society and in terms of CAPITALISM, is also relevant, for when liberal is not being used as a loose swear-word, it is to this mixture of liberating and limiting ideas that it is intended to refer. Liberalism is then a doctrine of certain necessary kinds of freedom but also, and essentially, a doctrine of possessive individualism."

Nothing to do with believing/not believing in violent revolution...

That is the sense I think Chomsky seems to use it, and is fair enough.

The difference for me is when it's used as a "loose swear word" as used on urban - in the same way that the right wing uses it. The opposite of liberal in that sense is 'illiberal' and I don't care what politics someone has if they're illiberal then I don't trust whatever system they want to put in place.

 

[butchersapron]

That is the sense I think Chomsky seems to use it, and is fair enough.

The difference for me is when it's used as a "loose swear word" as used on urban - in the same way that the right wing uses it. The opposite of liberal in that sense is 'illiberal' and I don't care what politics someone has if they're illiberal then I don't trust whatever system they want to put in place.

Then you're using it in the insulting sense you claim to reject - just with a +placed where others would have a minus - rather than the rigourous politically defined one you suggest that you're using.

 

[ffsear]

I think there is little doubt now that the result will be a remain.

 

[butchersapron]

Apart from all that doubt.

 

[two sheds]

Then you're using it in the insulting sense you claim to reject - just with a +placed where others would have a minus - rather than the rigourous politically defined one you suggest that you're using.

No, it's being used to actually get an idea across rather than just to insult people.

 

[DotCommunist]

I think there is little doubt now that the result will be a remain.

been on the cards for months, the real question is how close

I've not seen one poll that gave exit even a marginal lead. simply very close ones

 

[butchersapron]

No, it's being used to actually get an idea across rather than just to insult people.

I can't see where - certainly not in that post where. Putting forward a case that others are iliberal in the sense you think chomsky uses it would be a start on doing that - but you don't. You instead simply relegate people who use the term liberal to being something rather nasty. Whilst all sorts of open real nastiness that doesn't say liberal is going on all around you.

 

[butchersapron]

been on the cards for months, the real question is how close

I've not seen one poll that gave exit even a marginal lead. simply very close ones

Apart from all those ones with leave in the lead.

 

[andysays]

No, it's being used to actually get an idea across rather than just to insult people.

I think that's the way it's generally (with a few exceptions, obvs) being used on this and other threads, TBH

 

[killer b]

I've not seen one poll that gave exit even a marginal lead. simply very close ones

there's been loads.

 

[DotCommunist]

I'll take your words for it. I'm assuming the ones indicating a leave victory are narrow results rather than slides tho?

 

[Pickman's model]

been on the cards for months, the real question is how close

I've not seen one poll that gave exit even a marginal lead. simply very close ones

i thought you were paying attention

 

[Cid]

been on the cards for months, the real question is how close

I've not seen one poll that gave exit even a marginal lead. simply very close ones

Summary on the FT site.

 

[redsquirrel]

I'll take your words for it. I'm assuming the ones indicating a leave victory are narrow results rather than slides tho?

Not last week, there were a number of quite large Leave leads.

 

[butchersapron]

I suppose this could really go in the guardian pan thread as well - a little of bit of that unstated thornberry style:



Do you really want these types to have a country?

 

[weltweit]

Interesting that the results so far of the poll on this thread seems to be so different from the polls that are being taken in the country. Does anyone have any idea why that might be?

 

[redsquirrel]

Amazing, perhaps it's because U75 isn't representative off the UK.

 

[weltweit]

Amazing, perhaps it's because U75 isn't representative off the UK.

Obviously! but how I wonder is it different?

 

[redsquirrel]

Really, you wonder that. Christ

 

[butchersapron]

Obviously! but how I wonder is it different?

What is the basis on which pollsters try to carry our their work?

 

[weltweit]

What is the basis on which pollsters try to carry our their work?

Representative sampling. Which is why I ask, what does Urban's sample represent?

 

[butchersapron]

Representative sampling. Which is why I ask, what does Urban's sample represent?

Small lot of pro-nazis and a lot of smug liberals. will that do?

 

[weltweit]

Small lot of pro-nazis and a lot of smug liberals. will that do?

I guess it will have to.

 

[weltweit]

I watched Cameron's session on QT this morning, still amazed to find people in the audience who are don't knows, this late in the game I would have thought people would at least have a leaning in or out.

 

[Dowie]

You know nothing.

ah the usual snide comment from the usual cunt

 

[Pickman's model]

ah the usual snide comment from the usual cunt

shall we go through it then and expose your ignorance? or would you prefer it was passed over in silence?

 

[ffsear]

I watched Cameron's session on QT this morning, still amazed to find people in the audience who are don't knows, this late in the game I would have thought people would at least have a leaning in or out.

I still don't know. I'm going to vote on Gut feeling. I'm going to hover over the leave box and ask myself if I feel like i doing the right thing here.

 

[Pickman's model]

that is what is really annoying me, prominent business leaders all say you should do X and they know what is best for you, this nasty person is voting Y so you shouldn't vote that way because then you'll be supporting a nasty person

apparently Baroness Warsi has switched sides over a poster - I don't really understand why a poster is relevant to the actual issues, it is surely just an unfortunate symptom of having some arseholes supporting one particular side, switching sides over a non issue like that just seems ridiculous, if you actually believe in your position the fact that some arseholes will also vote to support it (albeit for very different reasons) shouldn't be reason to change

warsi said she left because of the xenophobia of the leave campaign and also because of the repeated lies being told: she referenced gove on turkey's accession to the eu on the today programme this morning. which you'd know if you'd been paying attention. the poster, which has been widely condemned, is again symptomatic, she said, of the lies from the leave campaign, suggesting all those people coming to the uk when that's not in fact the case.