Brexit - impact on musicians, touring and the music/events industry

[TopCat]

it seems to be to do with illegally downloaded material rather than streaming stuff. have you read the story?

So everyone pays all of them because of piracy?

 

[nogojones]

Let's add 3% to every sd card, USB thumb drive, hdd, ssd, etc, and give it to musicians that nobody listens to. Actually, I think it's a great idea. I have a guitar, where do I sign up for my piece of the pie? There are 12 members in my band. Mostly cats. Do we all get a share?

You might like Meow the Jewels. Run the Jewels remixed their album with their cats. All profits going to a cat sanctuary.

 

[nogojones]

I dunno. I'm not sure this is the answer, but I also think it's reasonable to try and work out ways of compensating artists for their work in a world where everything can be copied, stored and consumed for free. Maybe some sort of levy on the tech companies that make the copying, storing and consumption possible is one way.

I'm not sure downloading is anywhere near as big as it was now everything can be streamed. Maybe make spotiify and youtube pay their far share. But it's more palatable to tax the consumer than the cunts coining it.

 

[Raheem]

I'm not sure downloading as anywhere near as big as it was now everything can be streamed. Maybe make spotiify and youtube pay their far share. But it's more palatable to tax the consumer than the cunts coining it.

Not sure why forcing money out of Spotify is landing one on the cunts, but forcing money out of Samsung would be an attack on the poor beleaguered consumer.

 

[nogojones]

Not sure why forcing money out of Spotify is landing one on the cunts, but forcing money out of Samsung would be an attack on the poor beleaguered consumer.

Because it appears to be a proposed tax on sales at the retail level (like VAT - a regressive tax), rather than on the producer.

 

[killer b]

I'm not sure downloading as anywhere near as big as it was now everything can be streamed. Maybe make spotiify and youtube pay their far share. But it's more palatable to tax the consumer than the cunts coining it.

I dunno - the monthly cost of spotify is set at what the market can bear, not what would actually support the artists. Increased payments from subscriptions is only part of the answer.

 

[2hats]

Or a visa to Russia, asking about everywhere you've been in the last ten years plus exact dates and job history

Or a visa to visit a closed Russian city (bonus travel experience: FSB interview and additional paperwork).

 

[Raheem]

Because it appears to be a proposed tax on sales at the retail level (like VAT - a regressive tax), rather than on the producer.

So if the amount was calculated and billed to Samsung, who could then choose whether to incorporate it into their prices, that would somehow be completely different?

 

[nogojones]

So if the amount was calculated and billed to Samsung, who could then choose whether to incorporate it into their prices, that would somehow be completely different?

If companies didn't have to pay corporation tax do you think they'd pass them savings down to the consumer?

 

[Raheem]

If companies didn't have to pay corporation tax do you think they'd pass them savings down to the consumer?

I don't know. I suppose they would to the extent that doing so would increase their profits. But it would be their money and their decision.

What I wouldn't say is that whether it gets passed on to the consumer makes the difference between cuntery and heroism.

 

[Monkeygrinder's Organ]

I'm repeating myself here but it seems pretty obvious to me that the reason artists do so badly out of Spotify isn't evil cunts creaming off all the profits (I'm sure some people get rich off it of course but probably much less so than a lot of the people who used to get a cut off physical sales) it's that they charge a tenner a month for all the music you can listen to. Any improvement in payments beyond the absolutely minuscule would need to come with increased prices IMO.

 

[Raheem]

I'm repeating myself here but it seems pretty obvious to me that the reason artists do so badly out of Spotify isn't evil cunts creaming off all the profits (I'm sure some people get rich off it of course but probably much less so than a lot of the people who used to get a cut off physical sales) it's that they charge a tenner a month for all the music you can listen to. Any improvement in payments beyond the absolutely minuscule would need to come with increased prices IMO.

Any yet there are supposedly 7 million paid Spotify accounts in the UK. That's £840 million a year. CD sales have fallen by about £800 million a year since 2009. Since that also means a big drop in manufacturing costs, and since Spotify isn't the only streaming service available, why is it not adding up for artists?

 

[The39thStep]

I'm repeating myself here but it seems pretty obvious to me that the reason artists do so badly out of Spotify isn't evil cunts creaming off all the profits (I'm sure some people get rich off it of course but probably much less so than a lot of the people who used to get a cut off physical sales) it's that they charge a tenner a month for all the music you can listen to. Any improvement in payments beyond the absolutely minuscule would need to come with increased prices IMO.

This issue of artists , workers getting paid more than minimum /low wage leading to increased prices has really gripped some posters on here hasn’t it ?

 

[Monkeygrinder's Organ]

Any yet there are supposedly 7 million paid Spotify accounts in the UK. That's £840 million a year. CD sales have fallen by about £800 million a year since 2009. Since that also means a big drop in manufacturing costs, and since Spotify isn't the only streaming service available, why is it not adding up for artists?

I haven't seen those stats so I'm not sure but a couple that come to mind are that the average cost to each user is going to be a lot less than a tenner a month - we pay £12 for two for example and you can get half a dozen on a family account, and that you can account for a quarter or so of the 2009 value just in inflation.

I'm not a market analyst or anything though, I'm just basing it on my own buying patterns and those of people I know, who spend a lot less than we used to. Maybe you could argue that there's enough people who otherwise wouldn't have bought anything who now put in a tenner but I doubt it tbh.

 

[nogojones]

I don't know. I suppose they would to the extent that doing so would increase their profits. But it would be their money and their decision.

What I wouldn't say is that whether it gets passed on to the consumer makes the difference between cuntery and heroism.

There's no heroes in this choice. They're all cunts

 

[Raheem]

I haven't seen those stats so I'm not sure but a couple that come to mind are that the average cost to each user is going to be a lot less than a tenner a month - we pay £12 for two for example and you can get half a dozen on a family account, and that you can account for a quarter or so of the 2009 value just in inflation.

I'm not a market analyst or anything though, I'm just basing it on my own buying patterns and those of people I know, who spend a lot less than we used to. Maybe you could argue that there's enough people who otherwise wouldn't have bought anything who now put in a tenner but I doubt it tbh.

I wasn't expecting detailed workings-out, don't worry.

I didn't know you could save money on Spotify with group accounts. But even if we halve the revenue, that's still £420 million. Spotify apparently has just less than a third of the music streaming market. Even if we're conservative, it would look plausible that steaming revenues in the UK exceed a billion pounds a year. Then you still have physical sales and downloads to add on.

All very back-of-a-fag-packet, but it doesn't look very obvious that the problem is that not enough money is being spent by consumers. It seems more likely to me that there have been big changes in how the money is distributed within the system.

 

[Pickman's model]

Or a visa to visit a closed Russian city (bonus travel experience: FSB interview and additional paperwork).

Had to do special stuff to get to tiksi

 

[killer b]

It seems more likely to me that there have been big changes in how the money is distributed within the system.

yeah, I think this is true - the slice of the pie going to established artists' back catalogue is much larger for one thing

 

[Raheem]

yeah, I think this is true - the slice of the pie going to established artists' back catalogue is much larger for one thing

That's got to be part of it. Which you might solve if Spotify were to pay a premium for recently-released music, however much Cliff whines in the Mail on Sunday.

But I also expect Spotify is sinking enormous amounts into marketing, PR, salaries and so on.

 

[editor]

And the one market where struggling, smaller bands and musicians could often expect to be paid well for their services has now been all but closed off because of Brexit...

 

[MickiQ]

That's got to be part of it. Which you might solve if Spotify were to pay a premium for recently-released music, however much Cliff whines in the Mail on Sunday.

Cliff whinging would add to the value I thought I was getting from my subscription to be honest, there's also the idea of paying an even smaller percentage for the catalogue of dead artists, after all their estates can hardly claim to be creating music

 

[Pickman's model]

Perhaps sir cliff could underwrite the costs of touring Europe for any bands prepared to travel in a routemaster

 

[Saul Goodman]

And the one market where struggling, smaller bands and musicians could often expect to be paid well for their services has now been all but closed off because of Brexit...

It's a shite state of affairs, isn't it, but if you can't make money in the UK, and it's financially prohibitive to tour the EU, then it seems that your only options are either move to an EU country or change trade.
I do feel your pain. I used to make my living building Macromedia Flash websites, so I know what it's like to be made redundant due to circumstances beyond your control. Furtunately, you do have the option to move to an EU country, if that's where the money and your audience are. It's not great but it is an option.

 

[ATOMIC SUPLEX]

Once again: touring the US is not comparable to touring Europe.

Europe used to be easy for small bands to play and for many proved an economic lifeline. Brexit has changed that.

Indeed. For most small bands america was totally out of the question. Plane tickets, visas and very small fees paid out to bands made it impossible.
Europe was cheap to get to, easy to arrange and they generally paid a decent amount to artists. It was the launchpad tour that the UK never was, and probably never will be.

 

[editor]

It's a shite state of affairs, isn't it, but if you can't make money in the UK, and it's financially prohibitive to tour the EU, then it seems that your only options are either move to an EU country or change trade.
I do feel your pain. I used to make my living building Macromedia Flash websites, so I know what it's like to be made redundant due to circumstances beyond your control. Furtunately, you do have the option to move to an EU country, if that's where the money and your audience are. It's not great but it is an option.

It's really not as easy for that, given that many musicians will have family/job/home commitments in the UK and are unlikely to find full employment solely as a musician in the EU.

 

[editor]

So here's the reality for small bands wanting to play Europe, as relayed to me by a very experienced booking agent.

You can visit France and Germany without visas but the paperwork for taking merch is impossible to complete if you aren’t a VAT registered company.

As merch is where the money is made then if you can’t take it the fees being offered are too low to cover touring costs so it’s a waste of time.

 

[glitch hiker]

Is there any hope for artists that might be able to crowdfund a post brexit career/touring?

Marillion (i'm not sorry, I like them) managed to revive their career quite famously through being among the first to embrace crowdfunding pre-kickstarter. They also have fan weekends which seem equite popular.

 

[editor]

Is there any hope for artists that might be able to crowdfund a post brexit career/touring?

Marillion (i'm not sorry, I like them) managed to revive their career quite famously through being among the first to embrace crowdfunding pre-kickstarter. They also have fan weekends which seem equite popular.

I'm sure of the bigger bands can manage it, but it's tricky for smaller bands who haven't got enough fans to constantly stump up for foreign trips.

 

[Saul Goodman]

It's really not as easy for that, given that many musicians will have family/job/home commitments in the UK and are unlikely to find full employment solely as a musician in the EU.

My nephew turned down an offer to join an already established/touring band just this week. He's a very good guitarist, and single with approximately zero commitments. He was offered the position in the band just before Covid hit, and even then he said he'd have to think about it, as he has a lot of friends in bands and knows how hard it is to make money at it, but he was asked to join them again a few weeks ago, and after talking with a few of his band member friends, he realised that he'd be a lot better off doing what he's doing now.
It's all but impossible for a band to make money these days, unless you're a K-Pop band or a good looking individual that can be autotuned to oblivion, and it is sad to see the beginning of the end of live music with actual musicians, but it looks like that's where we're at, and Covid was probably the final nail in the coffin.
It might be worth looking into virtual gigs and Patreon, or something like Stageit as it doesn't look like the UK live music scene will be bouncing back any time soon.

 

[editor]

My nephew turned down an offer to join an already established/touring band just this week. He's a very good guitarist, and single with approximately zero commitments. He was offered the position in the band just before Covid hit, and even then he said he'd have to think about it, as he has a lot of friends in bands and knows how hard it is to make money at it, but he was asked to join them again a few weeks ago, and after talking with a few of his band member friends, he realised that he'd be a lot better off doing what he's doing now.
It's all but impossible for a band to make money these days, unless you're a K-Pop band or a good looking individual that can be autotuned to oblivion, and it is sad to see the beginning of the end of live music with actual musicians, but it looks like that's where we're at, and Covid was probably the final nail in the coffin.
It might be worth looking into virtual gigs and Patreon, or something like Stageit as it doesn't look like the UK live music scene will be bouncing back any time soon.

There's very little money in virtual gigs unless you have the right kind of following in the right kind of numbers and access to a venue.