Brexit - impact on musicians, touring and the music/events industry

[editor]

When I was playing a lot I was far too anarchistically-inclined to want to be in a union. Looking back that wasn't a material problem for me then, but if I were working as a musician now I'd seriously consider it, because of where things are and where performers want things to go. Unionisation helps, in the arena of sectoral / collective negotiating with the state, and that's just a fact. It's (one of the reasons) why I'm a member of Unison now. Membership I pay for out of a pretty meagre wage, but the possible (and a few actual) benefits outweigh that IMO.

I read TopCat's post differently from you, I think, but I don't think it would help for me to get in to speaking for other posters. There's enough of that going on already tbh.

But if you're freelance and have - literally - zero income, finding an additional £230 is simply not an option, end of. Perhaps if you'd actually joined, you'd know first hand whether it's worth the investment or not. For me it was a resounding no, but that was some time ago.

The precarious/ad-hoc/shambolic nature of the lower end of the music business makes it much harder for the union to be as effective as they'd like to be, and it's not unusual to hear younger/poorer/cynical musicians express the feeling that they're more about supporting the pit players, orchestral players and film/tv players than grassroots musicians.

 

[Pickman's model]

I don’t remember that on the ballot.

I think he means MPs who voted for the deal

Or maybe he doesn't

 

[mojo pixy]

But if you're freelance and have - literally - zero income, finding an additional £230 is simply not an option, end of. Perhaps if you'd actually joined, you'd know first hand whether it's worth the investment or not. For me it was a resounding no, but that was some time ago.

The precarious/ad-hoc/shambolic nature of the lower end of the music business makes it much harder for the union to be as effective as they'd like to be, and it's not unusual to hear younger/poorer/cynical musicians express the feeling that they're more about supporting the pit players, orchestral players and film/tv players than grassroots musicians.

I get that, I'd have found it hard to stump up membership from my earnings at eg. Marble Arch and outside Abbey Road (that royalties cheque to P.McC is errrr in the post...). I did find it hard, that's why I never bothered. But then, there didn't seem to be a lot in it for me .. now it seems there is a reason, a good reason - and fwiw I just looked and the MU are offering 6 months' membership for a quid. In six months deals with more EU countries may be on the horizon, and a massively-swollen union can only help in that (I assume this is among their rationale for such a generous offer)

So now would be the time I guess, if ever there was one.

 

[editor]

So now would be the time I guess, if ever there was one.

Not for me.
"The offer is open to anyone joining online who has never been a member of the MU before "

 

[mojo pixy]

I noticed that. More than five years ago members are eligible, but not less than. I don't get why.

 

[ATOMIC SUPLEX]

I get that, I'd have found it hard to stump up membership from my earnings at eg. Marble Arch and outside Abbey Road (that royalties cheque to P.McC is errrr in the post...). I did find it hard, that's why I never bothered. But then, there didn't seem to be a lot in it for me .. now it seems there is a reason, a good reason - and fwiw I just looked and the MU are offering 6 months' membership for a quid. In six months deals with more EU countries may be on the horizon, and a massively-swollen union can only help in that (I assume this is among their rationale for such a generous offer)

So now would be the time I guess, if ever there was one.

MU membership is a year long commitment. You pay £1 for six months but then the normal rate for the rest of the year. You can't just drop out after the £1 bit.

 

[The39thStep]

But if you're freelance and have - literally - zero income, finding an additional £230 is simply not an option, end of. Perhaps if you'd actually joined, you'd know first hand whether it's worth the investment or not. For me it was a resounding no, but that was some time ago.

The precarious/ad-hoc/shambolic nature of the lower end of the music business makes it much harder for the union to be as effective as they'd like to be, and it's not unusual to hear younger/poorer/cynical musicians express the feeling that they're more about supporting the pit players, orchestral players and film/tv players than grassroots musicians.

I dont know anything about the MU tbh but is it the case iyo that they're more about supporting the pit players, orchestral players and film/tv players than grassroots musicians?

 

[mojo pixy]

MU membership is a year long commitment. You pay £1 for six months but then the normal rate for the rest of the year. You can't just drop out after the £1 bit.

I saw that, the £1 thing does bring the cost down to less than a tenner a month, averaged. That's what I pay Unison for example. Regular Unite members pay nearly as much as MU members. Anyway, it's a personal choice obvs but these times are good times to be in a union IMO.

I dont know anything about the MU tbh but is it the case iyo that they're more about supporting the pit players, orchestral players and film/tv players than grassroots musicians?

I think they pitch the union towards anyone who makes their primary living through musical performance. Unsure how it applies to DJs, producers, promoters tho.

 

[editor]

MU membership is a year long commitment. You pay £1 for six months but then the normal rate for the rest of the year. You can't just drop out after the £1 bit.

Have you ever been tempted to join? When it comes up in conversation with other musicians I don't think I've met anyone who is.

Jonathon Bishop is probably a member though.

 

[josef1878 2.0]

I think you are ok claiming UK benefits abroad if you go to Iceland, Liechtenstein and Norway providing you tell the job centre . Tax would be at the local VAT rate

You can only claim ni contribution based benefits abroad if I remember rightly

 

[TopCat]

Removing the right to freedom of movement was, or have you forgotten?

You seem to have mis remembered. The ballot asked if you wanted to leave or remain.

 

[TopCat]

You haven't a clue what you're talking about and hearing you blather away like you know better than experienced people whose livelihood depends on music is really irritating.

Perhaps you should stop telling them what to do and try listening. You might learn something.
Let's let that cheap personal attack sink in for a while.

But just to get it straight: in your mind, is every musician who isn't in the Musicians Union only looking out for themselves? Even if they can't afford to join the union?
Have I got that right?

It’s standard advice on urban to encourage people to join a relevant union if they have industry problems.

Buy one less pint of beer a week ( that’s the MU cost) and join the union. You can set it off against tax.

 

[bimble]

I dont know anything about the MU tbh but is it the case iyo that they're more about supporting the pit players, orchestral players and film/tv players than grassroots musicians?

Musicians union very directly involved in setting rates of pay & conditions for all the major orchestras in Uk. These are the ones who get booked for film scores recordings & adverts and so on as well as concerts. As I remember it (from my dad when he worked here) membership was mandatory if you play in or with any of the big orchestras. Here they are setting out the annually agreed basic fees for who gets what in which orchestra.

ABO Category 1 Orchestral Rates

Association of British Orchestras and Musicians' Union agreed Casual Concert / Freelance Orchestral rates for Category 1 Orchestras April 2020 - 2021

musiciansunion.org.uk

That’s not the sort of thing that would work with bands, ‘grassroots’ gigs.

 

[TopCat]

Why I Joined the MU: Andy Payne

Drummer and teacher Andy Payne tells us about how advice from the MU has proved invaluable when making career choices.

musiciansunion.org.uk

 

[klang]

Why I Joined the MU: Andy Payne

Drummer and teacher Andy Payne tells us about how advice from the MU has proved invaluable when making career choices.

musiciansunion.org.uk

yeah but he looks like the biggest twat in his band.

 

[ATOMIC SUPLEX]

Have you ever been tempted to join? When it comes up in conversation with other musicians I don't think I've met anyone who is.

Jonathon Bishop is probably a member though.

No. Never joined and never tempted to, even when I was working quite heavily as a composer for TV and adverts. I was pretty much covered quite helpfully for any foul play by PRS. The musicians union seems far more geared up for members of an orchestra or musicians for hire for say TV or theatre . . . much like an actor's union. Was of no use to me as a member of a small time or band as a composer.

 

[beesonthewhatnow]

You seem to have mis remembered. The ballot asked if you wanted to leave or remain.

Yeah. Which was the very start of the problems.

 

[beesonthewhatnow]

Show's over for British roadies as Brexit blocks European music tours

www.msn.com

Oh look, more project fear etc. Guess all these industry leading companies should just join the MU or go busking.

 

[The39thStep]

Musicians union very directly involved in setting rates of pay & conditions for all the major orchestras in Uk. These are the ones who get booked for film scores recordings & adverts and so on as well as concerts. As I remember it (from my dad when he worked here) membership was mandatory if you play in or with any of the big orchestras. Here they are setting out the annually agreed basic fees for who gets what in which orchestra.

ABO Category 1 Orchestral Rates

Association of British Orchestras and Musicians' Union agreed Casual Concert / Freelance Orchestral rates for Category 1 Orchestras April 2020 - 2021

musiciansunion.org.uk

That’s not the sort of thing that would work with bands, ‘grassroots’ gigs.

Despite your view that the MU isnt fit for purpose for bands who perform at the 'grassroorts' gig level surely they are the most effective organisation to join and campaign for some form of change to the present regulations?

 

[ATOMIC SUPLEX]

Despite your view that the MU isnt fit for purpose for bands who perform at the 'grassroorts' gig level surely they are the most effective organisation to join and campaign for some form of change to the present regulations?

They are definitely going to fight for their membership, there are a lot of them that are going to be devastated by the changes. Most members join because they have to be a member in their field, and MU have done a great job at keeping decent pay rates and conditions for those musicians. . . . But toilet circuit band members are going to find it hard dropping a few hundred quid each just to show support.

 

[bimble]

Despite your view that the MU isnt fit for purpose for bands who perform at the 'grassroorts' gig level surely they are the most effective organisation to join and campaign for some form of change to the present regulations?

I’ve got no idea about them being ‘fit for purpose’ or not, just that their focus & most of membership does seem to be elsewhere.

 

[editor]

It’s standard advice on urban to encourage people to join a relevant union if they have industry problems.

So why do you think so few grassroots rock/indie musicians have joined the MU? Any ideas? Is it - as you have sneeringly inferred earlier - just because they're only interested themselves? Or maybe you're going to suggest that they're all anti-union?

Or is is perhaps because those musicians - many of whom will have/did have other jobs just to survive - can't afford to commit to a hefty £230 every year, and historically the MU have proved about as useful as a chocolate fireguard to those working the toilet circuit?

The music industry is quite different to most others, and it's naïve to draw direct parallels with unions supporting other industries.

 

[editor]

You seem to have mis remembered. The ballot asked if you wanted to leave or remain.

This is like arguing with a child. Let's try again: was removing the right of freedom of movement a central tenet of the leave campaign YES/NO?

 

[The39thStep]

So why do you think so few grassroots rock/indie musicians have joined the MU? Any ideas? Is it - as you have sneeringly inferred earlier - just because they're only interested themselves? Or maybe you're going to suggest that they're all anti-union?

Or is is perhaps because those musicians - many of whom will have/did have other jobs just to survive - can't afford to commit to a hefty £230 every year, and historically the MU have proved about as useful as a chocolate fireguard to those working the toilet circuit?

The music industry is quite different to most others, and it's naïve to draw direct parallels with unions supporting other industries.

This brings me to the second question I was going to ask Supine but I think in all fairness to Supine ( and his Dad) you are more at the coalface . If the MU isnt fit for purpose in representing those who rely on 'grassroot' gigs or the 'toilet circus' how would a union or even an association be built that can do that ?

 

[editor]

This brings me to the second question I was going to ask Supine but I think in all fairness to Supine ( and his Dad) you are more at the coalface . If the MU isnt fit for purpose in representing those who rely on 'grassroot' gigs or the 'toilet circus' how would a union or even an association be built that can do that ?

Here's some of the reasons why any union will have a real tricky job establishing any kind of leverage on the grass roots circuit.

It's entirety right and fair that they should demand a minimum wage for musicians and bands playing on the circuit - everyone deserves to get a fair whack for their labour.

But here's the rub: if small venues were compelled to pay those sums for every single band, they'd simply stop putting on bands and get a DJ, or just close down altogether.

And then you have the problem of bands willingly playing for free for a juicy support gig, and the union telling them that they can't do it. This is why the MU has traditionally been far more effective in the old-school music jobs like orchestras and TV work, where things are less chaotically run.

Add in the fact that the subscription fees will be genuinely prohibitive for many struggling musicians on the bottom rung of the circuit - and even if they paid up, they'd be unlikely to get much use out of it for the gigs they'll be playing.

Until the arts is properly supported in the UK, its always going to be this way. And, sadly, judging by some of the commentators on these threads, there's little widespread support for that.

But don't get me wrong: I'd love there to be a powerful union representing musicians but I just think the multi-tiered nature of the industry makes it incredibly difficult to establish something that could cover the needs of such a diverse range of interests. And unlike some others here, I actually joined the MU so speak from disappointed experience.

 

[The39thStep]

Here's some of the reasons why any union will have a real tricky job establishing any kind of leverage on the grass roots circuit.

It's entirety right and fair that they should demand a minimum wage for musicians and bands playing on the circuit - everyone deserves to get a fair whack for their labour.

But here's the rub: if small venues were compelled to pay those sums for every single band, they'd simply stop putting on bands and get a DJ, or just close down altogether.

And then you have the problem of bands willingly playing for free for a juicy support gig, and the union telling them that they can't do it. This is why the MU has traditionally been far more effective in the old-school music jobs like orchestras and TV work, where things are less chaotically run.

Add in the fact that the subscription fees will be genuinely prohibitive for many struggling musicians on the bottom rung of the circuit - and even if they paid up, they'd be unlikely to get much use out of it for the gigs they'll be playing.

Until the arts is properly supported in the UK, its always going to be this way. And, sadly, judging by some of the commentators on these threads, there's little widespread support for that.

But don't get me wrong: I'd love there to be a powerful union representing musicians but I just think the multi-tiered nature of the industry makes it incredibly difficult to establish something that could cover the needs of such a diverse range of interests. And unlike others here, I actually joined the MU so speak from disappointed experience.

Thanks that's very useful. Ive got a few more questions but they can wait for a bit.

 

[mojo pixy]

So .. no extra informal public performing for cash, no unionization.

Can I ask what solutions to this problem some music pros are considering / working on? Not including rejoining the EU (let's imagine that won't happen in the next year or two)

 

[beesonthewhatnow]

So .. no extra informal public performing for cash, no unionization.

Can I ask what solutions to this problem some music pros are considering / working on? Not including rejoining the EU (let's imagine that won't happen in the next year or two)

A lot of companies are looking at establishing European bases. Some U.K. crew will attempt to relocate with them (those lucky enough to have a passport that’s actually worth something), others will likely lose a huge amount of work.

I personally know several people who - through a combination of the current covid issues and the looming Brexit shit sandwich - have given up on decades long careers and are retraining for other work.

Several high profile companies have already gone to the wall due to covid. They likely won’t be replaced because who in their right mind would start a new U.K. based one given what’s coming? European based production houses/trucking companies are now perfectly placed to take over. A genuinely world leading industry is being thrown on the scrap heap.

But hey, political freedom. Yay.

 

[editor]

Thanks that's very useful. Ive got a few more questions but they can wait for a bit.

A bit more from the promoter side: I've promoted popular gigs for 15 odd years now, where the bands, poets, comedians etc and the punters have generally all left happy. They were well attended, well promoted and at the beginning, I established a new live venue on the circuit that bands loved playing.

And if I dare be so bold, I'd say that in the process, I'd culturally enriched the neighbourhood a tiny bit, and created a venue for local people in what was a predominantly poor neighbourhood providing totally free entertainment. But none of this would have been possible if I'd been compelled to pay MU rates to the bands (not that any I know were members anyway). So right there is the basic problem and why grassroots musicians can be at odds with the MU.

Since then, I've generally been able to pay bands a decent wedge but that's only after pushing the venues really hard and being reliant on getting a big enough crowd in to support those fees. It's a precarious living and one where promoters can end up taking huge gambles to put on gigs that pay everyone well.

 

[editor]

So .. no extra informal public performing for cash, no unionization.

For the last time - people aren't allowed to busk right now and even if they could, only a relatively small percentage of musicians have the skills, confidence and location to go busking. It's not a viable option for many people.

Can I ask what solutions to this problem some music pros are considering / working on? Not including rejoining the EU (let's imagine that won't happen in the next year or two)

What suggestions do you have?