Brexit - impact on musicians, touring and the music/events industry

[editor]

Worldwide free movement for musicians to ply their trade? Is that’s what’s wanted?

Getting back to pre-Brexit free movement around Europe would be a good start, because all the new added costs of visas, health insurance, carnets etc plus the ensuing red tape now makes it impossible for smaller bands to take on tours, The big money bands will probably be fine though.

 

[ATOMIC SUPLEX]

Worldwide free movement for musicians to ply their trade? Is that’s what’s wanted?

You answering how brexit has made all this (or anything) better is what's wanted.

 

[editor]

Plus no taxes on merchandise sales and retain the ability to sign on?

*Gazes in awe at the mighty strawman being busily constructed.

 

[editor]

You answering how brexit has made all this (or anything) better is what's wanted.

Indeed. But someone signing on and taxes on merchandise are suddenly the big issue for him.

It's almost like he's doing anything to avoid answering direct, relevant questions like: how has Brexit made things better in any meaningful, non-abstract way for musicians, DJs and small bands touring Europe?

 

[The39thStep]

Indeed. But someone signing on and taxes on merchandise are suddenly the big issue for him.

It's almost like he's doing anything to avoid answering direct, relevant questions like: how has Brexit made things better in any meaningful, non-abstract way for musicians, DJs and small bands touring Europe?

I think you are ok claiming UK benefits abroad if you go to Iceland, Liechtenstein and Norway providing you tell the job centre . Tax would be at the local VAT rate

 

[klang]

Years ago, I had a thoroughly obscure American singer/songwriter contact me just before he was flying over to London. I said sure, but it was too late to change my listings as my gig was a day away.

He was coming on holiday to the UK but his fried had arranged a small gig in a pub for him while he we was over there. He got stopped at customs and when they found his bag of self-printed CDs they looked him up on line. They found the listing, decided that he was coming here to work illegally and sent him back on the next plane. I think he said he wasn't even getting paid for the gig too.

Post Brexit, musicians would be mad to gamble on gigging or touring in Europe without the right paperwork.

happened to a few mates (separate to each other) when trying to blag the US. merch is the big give-away even if not carrying instruments.

 

[klang]

One thing that is possible is to try and get the merch made in the country you're playing and pick it up there, but there's plenty that could go wrong with that, and fucking up your merch could be really costly.

we used to send merch by post to the US, well in advance.

 

[editor]

Reposted from FB: Words about the UK Music Industry by Aaron Liddard (a professional sax player).

“Couple of nuggets from the Parliament fact finding discussion on the touring industry yesterday:

UK creative industries worth £111,000,000,000 annually. Music is 49 times larger than the fishing industry.
UK has 10% share of world music industry.

Freedom of movement has been curtailed for British people but not for EU people.

Hiring a British musician to play in Europe will be far more expensive than hiring a European musician.

Hiring a British musician to play in Europe will be far bigger headache than hiring a European musician.

Hiring a British band / orchestra will require extra costs for European promoters. They’ll simply hire from elsewhere.

European musicians based in Europe will still be able to tour the uk for up to 90 days whereas we can only do that in France or Germany.

We were offered reciprocal 90 day visa free access. All the paperwork is done and ready to use instantly. Boris Johnson refused this excellent deal.

Every European country now has to decide what it considers a fair deal for touring musicians from the UK. Most likely rules will be changes for decades to come, creating endless extra work. All of this was completely avoidable by just agreeing to the standard deal.

The music industry is not safe in the hands of this conservative administration.

European musicians can have up to 90 days in each country, even if that adds up to the entire year.
we have a total 90 days, twice a year.

UK is an entry point for American artists. By reducing our competitiveness
to support American artists in Europe Johnson has also stymied our chances of continuing around the world with the same productions.

Crew (sound engineers / tour managers / backline) from the UK are world industry leaders. They’re all going to be forced to sit at home at least half of the time. FYI a tour of the UK with crew lasts a maximum 10 days, and then can’t be repeated for at least 9 months.

50% of all touring haulage is operated by UK haulage companies. We are the industry leader. Complete dominance. Not any more. Now UK trucks are allowed only two stops in Europe then must pass their cargo to European haulage companies and come straight home. And sit at home for the rest of the tour.

We’re often told that conservatives are “the safe hands for money and business”. Sorry but this couldn’t be further from the truth for my industry.

Conservative politicians are still peddling the story that they sought a deal for touring musicians as businessmen and Europe refused. We’ve just received a letter from one saying just that. Either the author is a liar or he is completely unaware of the failure of his leader.”

I'll look forward to pro-Brexit fans explaining why Brexit isn't anything else but a total disaster for the music industry.

 

[mojo pixy]

Worldwide free movement for musicians to ply their trade? Is that’s what’s wanted?

I like this idea very much, but it should be for everyone in any line of work. Obviously that's a ridiculous idea, but as ridiculous ideas go it's one of the best.

 

[Supine]

Indeed. But someone signing on and taxes on merchandise are suddenly the big issue for him.

It's almost like he's doing anything to avoid answering direct, relevant questions like: how has Brexit made things better in any meaningful, non-abstract way for musicians, DJs and small bands touring Europe?

Tbf to him he hasn't because he knows it has made things more difficult. He doesn't care because he lacks empathy with affected people. His feeling of sovereignty is all he cares about.

 

[TopCat]

Indeed. But someone signing on and taxes on merchandise are suddenly the big issue for him.

It's almost like he's doing anything to avoid answering direct, relevant questions like: how has Brexit made things better in any meaningful, non-abstract way for musicians, DJs and small bands touring Europe?

Have you considered joining the Musicians Union? If you all stand together you can make your case better.

 

[editor]

Have you considered joining the Musicians Union? If you all stand together you can make your case better.

This would be like me suggesting how you should conduct your work affairs.

But it has already been discussed at length on another thread. The MU is completely unaffordable to many musicians - like me - who really can't afford to splash out an additional £227 a year and I'd struggle to justify that kind out of outlay anyway as they're not particularly useful or effective for musicians like me. And yes, I have been a member.

 

[editor]

I like this idea very much, but it should be for everyone in any line of work. Obviously that's a ridiculous idea, but as ridiculous ideas go it's one of the best.

How about we start with Europe-wide free movement for musicians to ply their trade?

Oh, wait...

 

[mojo pixy]

If it's just for European people then fuck that, basically.

 

[editor]

If it's just for European people then fuck that, basically.

Right. So better to have no free movement at all. Brilliant thinking!

But it's a fucking ridiculous argument anyway because in case you hadn't noticed, a load of people in the UK have voted to curtail free movement of musicians in Europe. And apparently they're viewing the disastrous outcome as a great success.

 

[mojo pixy]

No, I mean Freedom of Movement has always been a massively unequal thing anyway - not everyone has the possibility/ability to ply their trade anywhere in Europe. Musicians are part of a very select group of professionals who can. I believe it's always been one of the appeals of music as a line of work, like being in the circus or part of a theatre troupe. For many, many people - I'd argue a huge majority - ''freedom of movement'' is as theoretical a benefit as ''political freedom'' is to others.

 

[TopCat]

This would be like me suggesting how you should conduct your work affairs.

But it has already been discussed at length on another thread. The MU is completely unaffordable to many musicians - like me - who really can't afford to splash out an additional £227 a year and I'd struggle to justify that kind out of outlay anyway as they're not particularly useful or effective for musicians like me. And yes, I have been a member.

I always think membership of a trade union is essential. I have always been in one or the other. Great for representation, free legal advice, punch your collective weight as it were.
It made me wonder (your lack of interest or membership of a union) highlights that really it’s not musicians collectively you are much concerned about but you and your band.

The self employed can deduct most if not all of the cost of membership off of the yearly tax bill. It surely has to be worth it especially as you face red tape etc.

The MU would guide you though the obstacles or perhaps claim (like the seafood association) that collectively you need compensation.

 

[TopCat]

Right. So better to have no free movement at all. Brilliant thinking!

But it's a fucking ridiculous argument anyway because in case you hadn't noticed, a load of people in the UK have voted to curtail free movement of musicians in Europe.

I don’t remember that on the ballot.

 

[Bahnhof Strasse]

How about we start with Europe-wide free movement for musicians to ply their trade?

Why just Europe-wide?

 

[TopCat]

*Gazes in awe at the mighty strawman being busily constructed.

Well carnets are there in most/all countries to ensure you don’t sell stuff while you are there?
You could just declare the merchandise in EU countries as they know you are there working.

Obviously in the US they would be harsh if you did not declare you were going to work and did not get a visa for that. Plus selling merchandise and not paying US taxes.

 

[editor]

Why just Europe-wide?

"start with..."

 

[editor]

Well carnets are there in most/all countries to ensure you don’t sell stuff while you are there?
You could just declare the merchandise in EU countries as they know you are there working.

Obviously in the US they would be harsh if you did not declare you were going to work and did not get a visa for that. Plus selling merchandise and not paying US taxes.

You've never done a tour with a band when carnets are necessary at every border, have you?

I have and it was a red-tape laden, time consuming fucking nightmare so I do wish you'd stop trying to downplay its impact on bands.

 

[editor]

I don’t remember that on the ballot.

Removing the right to freedom of movement was, or have you forgotten?

 

[editor]

I always think membership of a trade union is essential. I have always been in one or the other. Great for representation, free legal advice, punch your collective weight as it were.
It made me wonder (your lack of interest or membership of a union) highlights that really it’s not musicians collectively you are much concerned about but you and your band.

The self employed can deduct most if not all of the cost of membership off of the yearly tax bill. It surely has to be worth it especially as you face red tape etc.

The MU would guide you though the obstacles or perhaps claim (like the seafood association) that collectively you need compensation.

You haven't a clue what you're talking about and hearing you blather away like you know better than experienced people whose livelihood depends on music is really irritating.

Perhaps you should stop telling them what to do and try listening. You might learn something.

It made me wonder (your lack of interest or membership of a union) highlights that really it’s not musicians collectively you are much concerned about but you and your band.

Let's let that cheap personal attack sink in for a while.

But just to get it straight: in your mind, is every musician who isn't in the Musicians Union only looking out for themselves? Even if they can't afford to join the union?
Have I got that right?

 

[Bahnhof Strasse]

"start with..."

So a global wide system that allows workers to travel to anywhere and ply their their without restrictions, open borders. It’s admiral, if fucking mental.

 

[editor]

So a global wide system that allows workers to travel to anywhere and ply their their without restrictions, open borders. It’s admiral, if fucking mental.

I'm talking about musicians playing in Europe, in line with the title and theme of this thread.

But I can see that Brexit fans are doing the best to keep diverting this thread off topic because it's fucking obvious that Brexit is one almighty kick in the balls to musicians - despite one poster declaring Brexit a 'success' while being unable to come up with a single, solitary plus point for musicians.

 

[mojo pixy]

Brexit fans

I hope this doesn't include me because I'm certainly no fan of this bullshit. On the other hand, I am a fan of trying to look reality squarely in the face, and while I get that this is bad for many people including a lot of musicians --

(aside: a lot of care homes are struggling just now as staff from the EU have had to leave and underfunded establishments are having to spend £££ on agency staff while they do their best to recruit from a local population who don't want to do that kind of work. It also sucks)

-- anyway, there's a point where we all just have to put on our grownup pants and deal with the fucker. It's not even unsupportive to say so, quite the opposite. I personally agree that if more musicians were in the MU it would help in the collective negotiations around what happens next - that's not telling anyone how to conduct their business, it's just a fact. I recommend to colleagues all the time that they join Unison, it doesn't mean I'm judging them if they don't.

And once again it's worth saying that what's happening now to fuck up the life and work of musicians and all performers, is covid. I for one agree with whoever said upthread that as the pandemic crisis dies down and performing arts return to everyday reality, visa arrangements for travelling performers will be lined up very quickly. Performing arts does produce a lot of financial and cultural capital and I honestly can't see any government chucking the sector under the bus for the long-term.

My point stands too that Freedom of Movement in the sense of being able to work anywhere was always a theoretical benefit of EU membership for many millions of people. It's possible to ignore this, but it never stops being true.

 

[editor]

-- anyway, there's a point where we all just have to put on our grownup pants and deal with the fucker. It's not even unsupportive to say so, quite the opposite. I personally agree that if more musicians were in the MU it would help in the collective negotiations around what happens next - that's not telling anyone how to conduct their business, it's just a fact. I recommend to colleagues all the time that they join Unison, it doesn't mean I'm judging them if they don't.

Are you a member of the Musician's Union? I was.

There's plenty of reasons why loads of musicians can't/won't join them, and to have a someone here suggest that's because they don't care about their fellow musicians is deeply offensive and ignorant.

 

[MrSki]

 

[mojo pixy]

Are you a member of the Musician's Union? I was.

There's plenty of reasons why loads of musicians can't/won't join them, and to have a someone here suggest that's because they don't care about their fellow musicians is deeply offensive and ignorant.

When I was playing a lot I was far too anarchistically-inclined to want to be in a union. Looking back that wasn't a material problem for me then, but if I were working as a musician now I'd seriously consider it, because of where things are and where performers want things to go. Unionisation helps, in the arena of sectoral / collective negotiating with the state, and that's just a fact. It's (one of the reasons) why I'm a member of Unison now. Membership I pay for out of a pretty meagre wage, but the possible (and a few actual) benefits outweigh that IMO.

I read TopCat's post differently from you, I think, but I don't think it would help for me to get in to speaking for other posters. There's enough of that going on already tbh.