Brexit - impact on musicians, touring and the music/events industry

[littlebabyjesus]

depends on size of the event and the 'ranking' of the song

Sorry, more stupid questions. How are songs ranked?

 

[klang]

Sorry, more stupid questions. How are songs ranked?

in different ways.
one example is that if a song is played x repeats on the radio it is assumed that same song would statistically played x repeats in eg nightclubs. I regularly get plays in gyms on my break downs even though the listed songs are anything but gym music.
(this is more for recorded rather than live music)

 

[killer b]

depends on size of the event and the 'ranking' of the song

Say you were a solo artist, playing exclusively your material - how much of the PRS fee from a concert would you get back?

 

[klang]

Say you were a solo artist, playing exclusively your material - how much of the fee from a concert would you get back?

fuck knows tbh. But festivals are still by far the biggest earners because of the size of the audiences

e2a my publisher deals with these things so idk the exact numbers even though I probably should

 

[ATOMIC SUPLEX]

great stuff. your parents must be proud.
musicians and their special fucking needs and egos. what a surprise nobody gives a fuck.

He right though. You have shown yourself to have absolutely no clue but relentlessly ignore others who do, even when it's all broken down for you in very simple terms. It really is rather infuriating.

 

[klang]

I always thought that in UK things were a bit slack with royalties. I've hardly been asked for a set list by the promoter to hand over to PRS. In Germany that's part of the routine when doing the paper work.

 

[ATOMIC SUPLEX]

I get why people think this charge is a bad thing. People hate change, and they hate charges.
It seems the PRS are trying to make something out of a shitty situation that will ensure songwriters don't lose out too much.

I can understand the conflict here, but it seems there's a lot of entrenchment making that worse.

In this case prs are hitting low income low level bands with high fees they will not be able to recoup in prs payments on the performance. That means bigger prs artists are getting the cash. Prs can be very good for songwriters, but not at all In this case. It's very short sighted, and without consultation.
Also as mentioned before, not paying the prs is not a good option if you want to properly start something. They are quite hardcore. They check and heavily fine the smallest backwater shops (or any public establishment) playing music without a licence. They are very good at it.

 

[ATOMIC SUPLEX]

I always thought that in UK things were a bit slack with royalties. I've hardly been asked for a set list by the promoter to hand over to PRS. In Germany that's part of the routine when doing the paper work.

This is true, but in the UK (and I think this is expected) you do your own paperwork for the prs. I have to say in Germany, I was sometimes asked if I could fill in the forms saying no songs were prs registered.

 

[klang]

the bottom line is that there is money to be had from prs if you do the paper work etc. like you said, they are very good at checking and chasing and paying.
things accumulate very quickly with a few plays here and there. that's why it's important to register every fart.

however I agree with Atomic Suplex, them being very short sighted and they are, willingly or not, fucking over smaller acts

 

[han]

Say you were a solo artist, playing exclusively your material - how much of the PRS fee from a concert would you get back?

It depends on the proportion the artist and the record company own of the track(s) , doesn't it? Which will vary from contract to contract.

 

[ATOMIC SUPLEX]

fwiw, last year my PRS pay out was pitiful. few radio plays here and there, but might as well not bother going to the cash point for it.

Me too. There seems to have been a big change in TV fees. Music I wrote for TV used to be a big money spinner. . . But now it's counted on streams it's a pittance. A show I did for itv paid thousands, now the same show is streaming and getting far far far more viewers that it ever received in its original broadcast, but I am awarded pennies. I literally didn't make more than a quid off it.
You tube seems to be coming into play a lot more, but again I have only received a few pence. . . . Except for you tube in Spain where one of my bands songs must be on a HUGE clip somewhere because I made £15 (as opposed to .0004p on everything else).

 

[han]

Me too. There seems to have been a big change in TV fees. Music I wrote for TV used to be a big money spinner. . . But now it's counted on streams it's a pittance. A show I did for itv paid thousands, now the same show is streaming and getting far far far more viewers that it ever received in its original broadcast, but I am awarded pennies. I literally didn't make more than a quid off it.
You tube seems to be coming into play a lot more, but again I have only received a few pence. . . . Except for you tube in Spain where one of my bands songs must be on a HUGE clip somewhere because I made £15 (as opposed to .0004p on everything else).

Yeah, I remember hearing, about 20 years ago, that a composer of the BBC news music got £40k a year just from the repeated playings of his 10 second ident on TV. I wonder if that would happen now...

 

[ATOMIC SUPLEX]

Say you were a solo artist, playing exclusively your material - how much of the PRS fee from a concert would you get back?

Hopefully it's some kind of lump sum as with actual live shows and not the you tube streaming payment. To be honest the prs payout for live shows tends to be quite pitiful unless you are a major player.

 

[klang]

Portishead making 10000 of spotify says it all really

 

[klang]

Yeah, I remember hearing, about 20 years ago, that a composer of the BBC news music got £40k a year just from the repeated playings of his 10 second ident on TV. I wonder if that would happen now...

probably would tbf. BBC news is still a huge audience. Radio 1 still pays well / play

 

[ATOMIC SUPLEX]

Yeah, I remember hearing, about 20 years ago, that a composer of the BBC news music got £40k a year just from the repeated playings of his 10 second ident on TV. I wonder if that would happen now...

You are kidding? He makes a shit ton more than that. That is instant millionaire shit. Firstly terrestrial, then paid for every region, higher rate for theme music, music cues bubbling under all the time, international plays.
If I did a 10 part regional series for itv and only did the ins and outs I'd get a couple of grand. Imagine that show is on six times every day of the week in every region, all the ads etc etc etc.

Unless you mean another jingle other than the main news rave tune.

 

[han]

You are kidding? He makes a shit ton more than that. That is instant millionaire shit. Firstly terrestrial, then paid for every region, higher rate for theme music, music cues bubbling under all the time, international plays.
If I did a 10 part regional series for itv and only did the ins and outs I'd get a couple of grand. Imagine that show is on six times every day of the week in every region, all the ads etc etc etc.

Well, this was 20 years ago, at least. So now clearly the stakes are much higher!

Like many of these things, alot of it is about who you know, and whether you're good at hustling....

 

[klang]

Well, this was 20 years ago, at least. So now clearly the stakes are much higher!

Like many of these things, alot of it is about who you know, and whether you're good at hustling....

prs payments shouldn't depend on that though

 

[han]

prs payments shouldn't depend on that though

Indeed!

 

[rutabowa]

Hopefully it's some kind of lump sum as with actual live shows and not the you tube streaming payment. To be honest the prs payout for live shows tends to be quite pitiful unless you are a major player.

If we streamed one gig playing all our own songs (not using youtube, facebook or instagram, which already have licensing deals apparently) there is no way in a million years the prs revenue would even begin to cover the £22.50 minimum fee. So it is pay (to PRS/massively rich musicians) to play. They are forcing people to use facebook youtube and instagram basically, it is another monopoly move.

 

[ATOMIC SUPLEX]

prs payments shouldn't depend on that though

They don't. Getting the job does. The people that pay you to write the music for the most part don't know that you make a load of PRS. . . . but as I mentioned, the way PRS dish money out now is changing. I used to get the same money for ITV2 on the digibox thing as I did for terrestrial all regions back in 2000. Then they reduced that to the same payment as one region, now iplayer etc are just streaming rates (as mentioned before).

 

[rutabowa]

They are also completely ignoring the 99.999999% negative feedback and haven't discussed with any other organisations like that music venue one. What can be done about this? I suggest a mass campaign of downloading the new "Music Usage Reporting" spreadsheet, replacing the whole form with CUNTS written in 212pt and emailing it to applications@prsformusic.com until the message gets through?

 

[ATOMIC SUPLEX]

If we streamed one gig playing all our own songs (not using youtube, facebook or instagram, which already have licensing deals apparently) there is no way in a million years the prs revenue would even begin to cover the £22.50 minimum fee. So it is pay (to PRS/massively rich musicians) to play. They are forcing people to use facebook youtube and instagram basically, it is another monopoly move.

Sorry I thought I said that previously. This is exactly what would happen. Usually PRS is quite fair, but this clearly isn't. I assume they are assuming they are doing the musicians a favour (as the organisers will be setting the 'gigs' up) but they have not accounted for how these will mostly be set up by bands and goodwill, which would need a lot less unhelpful bullshit from PRS.
Yes, in this model the small bands/productions would suffer and the bigger ones would reap the benefits.

 

[wemakeyousoundb]

humans have it seems four fundamental biological drives (acquiring, bonding, learning and developing, since you ask). and no matter how important music is, it's not one of them.

tell that to a vinyl collector

By this logic though just think we could get rid of all professional sports too, think of all that pointless travel that would no longer be necessary.

I'm with you on this one

This goes back to my question about whether travelling musicians pay tax in the countries they play in or the countries they came from.

Within the EU it used to be you pay in your country of residence, now, probably pay twice I guess but don't quote me on this.

The Grosvenor for example used to charge one fee for using the back room, a larger fee for use of PA (which included paying an engineer)

bolded: my income (waves hello to mojo pixy and othr past attendees at the grosvenor), as pointed out earlier, this was part of a venue hire not a fee for a booked band.
Question: have you moved to Hastings?

it goes on to explain that the EU have put new regs on EU trucking firms as well that basically fuck all touring and roadshows down to the limited number of drops they can now make as well.

Not new regs, the discussions have brought it to the attention of the EU that their own internal cabotage rules had never been enforced and so more paperwork all around beckons thank you brexot for making it fair.

Again, the venues buildings will still be there, the audiences will still be there.

ftfy

DIY Space for London in Peckham tried to do a euro style place, all volunteer. It was great while it lasted, and it lasted a few years... only closed relatively recently: DIY Space for London - Wikipedia

I think it took an extreeeeme amount of pretty thankless work from one or two people to make it happen though.

Actually I think it ended up closing cos of covid rather than cos it didn't work in normal times though.

landlord didn't renew the lease becaquse of covid, we're hoping it might rise from its ashes

Which venue would you rather have, if you had to pick one:

• gangster funded money laundering place
• anarcho community with antisemitic conspiracy theories
• Carling sponsored corporate
• anti-fun woke room

2, I wonder if 4 relates to previous post?

Can someone clarify something for me? Presumably the PRS can only demand a fee if the performers doing the streaming are performing songs someone else wrote? If a band writes its own songs then it can just tell the PRS where to shove their licence fee?

a fee is collected when you perform your own songs somewhere registered with PRS and you get a cut of that fee

 

[The39thStep]

tell that to a vinyl collector
I'm with you on this one
Within the EU it used to be you pay in your country of residence, now, probably pay twice I guess but don't quote me on this.
bolded: my income (waves hello to mojo pixy and othr past attendees at the grosvenor), as pointed out earlier, this was part of a venue hire not a fee for a booked band.
Question: have you moved to Hastings?
Not new regs, the discussions have brought it to the attention of the EU that their own internal cabotage rules had never been enforced and so more paperwork all around beckons thank you brexot for making it fair.
ftfy
landlord didn't renew the lease becaquse of covid, we're hoping it might rise from its ashes
2, I wonder if 4 relates to previous post?
a fee is collected when you perform your own songs somewhere registered with PRS and you get a cut of that fee

the UK has a no double taxation agreement with most EU countries but thanks for saying how it was

 

[wemakeyousoundb]

the UK has a no double taxation agreement with most EU countries but thanks for saying how it was

I to be fair have no idea how it is now, just like a whole host of other question best left to some other thread as I am now a validated full time UK resident from over there

 

[rutabowa]

2, I wonder if 4 relates to previous post?

It did, but I was taking the piss a bit as really I admire them a lot and 4 would be my favoured future direction for venues if I had to pick.

 

[rutabowa]

I actually literally just joined a diy punk uk facebook group

Guess what? The group contains a LOT of "anti zionists" from the UK posting chomsky videos. Probably will leave it soon.

 

[ATOMIC SUPLEX]

Guess what? The group contains a LOT of "anti zionists" from the UK posting chomsky videos. Probably will leave it soon.

When you say "anti zionists" in quotes are you saying they are anti semitic? or anti zionism or critical of the Israeli government?
If you mean the first one then I should probably check it's not one I am involved with, there has been quite a flurry of them lately.

 

[rutabowa]

When you say "anti zionists" in quotes are you saying they are anti semitic? or anti zionism or critical of the Israeli government?
If you mean the first one then I should probably check it's not one I am involved with, there has been quite a flurry of them lately.

ime people who say they are "anti zionist" (using those specific words) and post loads of videos about it are nearly always antisemitic. obv I'm not saying noone should criticise israel ever, but when you are in a group with a load of old UK punks and there is a ton of "FUCK ZIONISTS" stuff I get very suspicious. I am probing a bit. if anyone starts going on about rothschilds i am out.