Brexit - impact on musicians, touring and the music/events industry

[mojo pixy]

Yes, no grassroots performers at all are members of the PRS.
ffs, this is weak stuff.

Edit, actually I can't be arsed. I really was sympathetic and I have spent the entire thread trying to face the likelihood of losing work as a musician, and how to deal with that. I can only speak from experience, I don't have all the answers. But the entitlement, the whining and the negativity makes me feel that some people just don't want to find ways forward; they just want things not to change.

Well things are changing, and no amount of sympathy makes that go away. I'll leave it now because what people want at the minute is a little echo chamber and tummy rubs. Maybe return at a time when the tears stop and people are more inclined to look at things constructively.

I'm sorry it's like this.

 

[bimble]

Still think you’re on a successful wind up.
Maybe elsewhere on the internet there’s similar rows going on but with fishermen or cheese exporters being told to buck up and look on the sunny side / embrace new ways of doing things.

 

[killer b]

Still think you’re on a successful wind up.
Maybe elsewhere on the internet there’s similar rows going on but with fishermen or cheese exporters being told to buck up and look on the sunny side / embrace new ways of doing things.

The fishing boats will probably just lie about the size of their catch, and the quotas will no doubt be set with that expectation.

 

[editor]

I get why people think this charge is a bad thing. People hate change, and they hate charges.
It seems the PRS are trying to make something out of a shitty situation that will ensure songwriters don't lose out too much.

I can understand the conflict here, but it seems there's a lot of entrenchment making that worse.

So just like you've shouted over the opinions of working grassroots musicians who - unlike you - have regularly toured Europe and know what they're talking about, you're now going to shout over the opinions of the Music Venue Trust and and IVW because you think you know what's best for musicians, most of whom haven't worked in nearly a year.

 

[editor]

great stuff. your parents must be proud.
musicians and their special fucking needs and egos. what a surprise nobody gives a fuck.

'Special needs' like wanting to be able to ply their trade and make a living?

 

[killer b]

So just like you've shouted over the opinions of working grassroots musicians who - unlike you - have regularly toured Europe and know what they're talking about, you're now going to shout over the opinions of the Music Venue Trust and and IVW because you think you know what's best for musicians, most of whom haven't worked in nearly a year.

this is all your fault for being mean to him y'know. if you'd been kinder to him he'd support your struggles. The price of workers solidarity turned out to be not being rude on the internet.

 

[platinumsage]

Charging a default £22.50 for what could be just a handful of people watching is ridiculous too - and it's been pointed out that many of these online gigs are put on for charities or to support a venue.

What does Spotify pay, something like £0.003 per stream? Not even on the same planet, let alone ballpark.

 

[littlebabyjesus]

At the moment this thread looking for sympathy has so far alienated one potential ally, so well done there

Just a guess, but I'd wager that the number readers of this thread who agree with you rather than every other musician who has posted is likely close to zero.

 

[klang]

fwiw, last year my PRS pay out was pitiful. few radio plays here and there, but might as well not bother going to the cash point for it.
Usually festival season is a good earner for me in terms of royalties. Either by playing myself or by other artists playing music I (co) wrote.
For example last year an artist toured an album I co wrote, headlining or playing high up the bill at lots of festivals. As expected I got a good pay out that I relied on and included in my future financial projections.
Last year there was none of it. Zero. Not with music I wrote for myself or for others.
It's important to see the touring / festival thing as an international thing, but mainly UK / Europe. With artists not being able to tour Europe easily anymore a lot of people will loose out, not just the people on stage.
Writers, managers, crew, etc etc

 

[klang]

fwiw, last year my PRS pay out was pitiful. few radio plays here and there, but might as well not bother going to the cash point for it.
Usually festival season is a good earner for me in terms of royalties. Either by playing myself or by other artists playing music I (co) wrote.
For example last year an artist toured an album I co wrote, headlining or playing high up the bill at lots of festivals. As expected I got a good pay out that I relied on and included in my future financial projections.
Last year there was none of it. Zero. Not with music I wrote for myself or for others.
It's important to see the touring / festival thing as an international thing, but mainly UK / Europe. With artists not being able to tour Europe easily anymore a lot of people will loose out, not just the people on stage.
Writers, managers, crew, etc etc

also, the whole industry is not just in for the lols. it's not just a van full of mates getting pissed in Europe. It is a way to make a living, to support families, pay taxes and contribute to people's wellbeing.
A lot of people affected by the changes have worked for many years to make it viable for them and their partners.

 

[editor]

There seems to be this weird attitude from some that just because musicians generally enjoy their work, then it can easily be relegated down to 'hobby' status, with all concerns about providing for yourself and your family dismissed as a cue for you to get a 'proper job.'

There's plenty of people in all walks of life who enjoy the career they've trained for and worked hard at, yet you rarely hear their financial troubles being derided and dismissed so readily.

 

[killer b]

Edit, actually I can't be arsed. I really was sympathetic and I have spent the entire thread trying to face the likelihood of losing work as a musician, and how to deal with that. I can only speak from experience, I don't have all the answers. But the entitlement, the whining and the negativity makes me feel that some people just don't want to find ways forward; they just want things not to change.

Here's your first post in the thread, where you explicitly stated that your sympathies lie elsewhere. You've been saying 'fuck you' since your very first post in the thread.

I've played music for all my adult and some of my teenage life. Hundreds of gigs in half a dozen bands but never travelled overseas just to play shows. Fronting the travel costs has always been completely beyond the means of the bands I've played in, so ''we'' (different combinations of ''we'' over the years IYSWIM) have had to stick to playing in the UK. On the other hand there's never been a lack of places to play.

There's a class element to this, for me. In a way, I have more sympathy for poor, marginalized communities where people voted Leave in droves and might now see their entire way of life smashed to pieces because they felt desperate and were lied to, than for articulate, educated, free-living performers who can if they really really want busk outside in the street and get paid easily enough. I don't mean to sound flippant (though I'm sure I do) but music can even be performed and sold on the internet, especially if you already have an audience.

A lot of non-musicians who are about to suffer badly from Brexit, don't have that option for what they do. And well they should have thought of that doesn't win any sympathy points either.

I admit that up-and-coming, trying-to-break-through musicians may well need the exposure of live work, but they generally aren't doing 6-country tours of Europe yet. And from another angle, it now arguably makes tours of North America relatively more attractive (perhaps even more so soon once UK-US agreements get made) and for British bands, NA is where the real money is.

 

[editor]

Here's your first post in the thread, where you explicitly stated that your sympathies lie elsewhere. You've been saying 'fuck you' since your very first post in the thread.

It's like a celebration of ignorance and prejudice with its Daily Mail-esque stereotypes of "articulate, educated, free-living performers" who can all busk in the streets and "get paid easily enough" and naïve notions that small bands can somehow make a living selling music "on the internet," or just trot off to the US "where the real money is."

 

[pesh]

At the moment this thread looking for sympathy has so far alienated one potential ally, so well done there

8/10

 

[littlebabyjesus]

It's like a celebration of ignorance and prejudice with its Daily Mail-esque stereotypes of "articulate, educated, free-living performers' who can all busk in the streets and "get paid easily enough" and naïve notions that small bands can somehow make a living selling music "on the internet," or just trot off to the US "where the real money is."

Rereading it, that post does have a certain grotesque beauty. Every sentence contains a gem.

 

[editor]

I get why people think this charge is a bad thing. People hate change, and they hate charges.

Instead of criticising and blaming musicians with your unfounded, dismissive nonsense about people 'hating change', try reading this:

Music industry bodies have criticised the Performing Rights Society (PRS) after it instituted a licence fee for ticketed small-scale live-streamed performances that they said will leave some grassroots artists out of pocket.

Paid-entry live-streamed shows have become an essential source of income for many musicians during the coronavirus pandemic, from Laura Marling and Dua Lipa – whose Studio 2054 show in November reportedly drew millions of viewers – to emerging acts playing in struggling venues, as well as a way of raising funds for charity.



In December, the PRS proposed a tariff of between 8% and 17% gross revenues for live-streamed events, a marked increase on its usual 4.2% gross takings from in-person gigs. This would be retrospectively applied to live streams that took place earlier in the year. An open letter from the Featured Artists Coalition (FAC) and the Music Managers Forum (MMF), its signatories including representatives for Lipa, Liam Gallagher and Arctic Monkeys, urged them to reconsider.

The PRS has now implemented those tariffs and announced a new flat fee for live-streamed shows that generate less than £500 gross. Event organisers of shows taking up to £250 will pay the PRS £22.50 plus VAT, regardless of whether takings surpass that figure. The fee doubles for shows grossing between £251 and £500.

For normal, in-person shows, a venue or promoter would deduct the PRS fee from its artist payments. But artists themselves are often the organisers of small-scale live-streamed gigs, engaging the venue and arranging ticket sales.

UK music industry outraged over licence fee cost for live-streamed events

A PRS tariff on virtual events grossing less than £500 could make online performances – often raising money for struggling artists and technical staff – ‘grind to a halt’, critics say

www.theguardian.com

So musicians could end up paying the PRS £22.50 plus VAT, regardless of whether their takings surpass that figure.

 

[rutabowa]

The PRS move is absolutely indefensible imo, at least the real gangsters who we played for were honest criminals and wouldn't claim to be anything else.

This is why the farmers in mexico end up supporting the narcos, because at least the narcos understand that they need money to live.

(Yes, I am literally saying that the PRS are morally worse than the mexican narco trafficking gangs.)

 

[littlebabyjesus]

I don't quite understand how making the charge retrospective is even legal.

 

[han]

There seems to be this weird attitude from some that just because musicians generally enjoy their work, then it can easily be relegated down to 'hobby' status, with all concerns about providing for yourself and your family dismissed as a cue for you to get a 'proper job.'

Agreed. It's actually bloody hard to make any kind of living as a musician. There are so many talented people out there who are unable to make it pay, generally because promoters expect bands to play for a few drinks. So they end up having to get day jobs and do it as something on the side.

I tried for a few years - my best earnings as a musician came from playing in a string quartet at weddings . So that was OK. But it was still barely enough to survive on. So when I got to my mid 20s I thought 'fuck this' and got a job in IT (and also ). In an ideal world (Cuba? for all its faults) the state would pay a Universal Basic Income, then artists and musicians could at least survive and have time to create. Sadly, as we're living in an ultra capitalist society, only a tiny minority of musicians/artists make a living doing what they have worked hard for and love.

Anything that makes this situation even harder has got to be damaging hasn't it? Brexit being one thing. Gentrification being another.

The beginnings of fascism are crushing some of the most important things we hold dear. I fear this is just the thin edge of the wedge.

 

[rutabowa]

I don't quite understand how making the charge retrospective is even legal.

don't think they are doing that tho

 

[rutabowa]

ha i think I got banned from twitter for my reaction to the PRS announcement.

 

[klang]

ha i think I got banned from twitter for my reaction to the PRS announcement.

what did you say?

 

[rutabowa]

ah it just involved a lot of swearing i don't think i actually got banned, i never really use twitter not sure how it works.

 

[MickiQ]

Can someone clarify something for me? Presumably the PRS can only demand a fee if the performers doing the streaming are performing songs someone else wrote? If a band writes its own songs then it can just tell the PRS where to shove their licence fee?

 

[littlebabyjesus]

don't think they are doing that tho

Ah, seems there is conflicting information. One article I read said they were. Guardian article says they are not. Perhaps they have swiftly backtracked on that bit.

 

[klang]

Can someone clarify something for me? Presumably the PRS can only demand a fee if the performers doing the streaming are performing songs someone else wrote? If a band writes its own songs then it can just tell the PRS where to shove their licence fee?

not if they want to claim the royalties for their songs

 

[klang]

ah it just involved a lot of swearing i don't think i actually got banned,

there is always room for improvement

 

[killer b]

In theory if you're playing only your own songs, the musicians should get royalty payments from the PRS for the concert they've paid the fee on, though it's not very clear to me how much of the fee would come back to them, or how long it would take - what's the usual with standard live shows?

 

[editor]

Coming up - panel talk from Independent Venue Week at 5.30pm

 

[klang]

In theory if you're playing only your own songs, the musicians should get royalty payments from the PRS for the concert they've paid the fee on, though it's not very clear to me how much of the fee would come back to them, or how long it would take - what's the usual with standard live shows?

depends on size of the event and the 'ranking' of the song