BREXIT Crunch time (part 38) WTF is going to happen next?

[kebabking]

Depends on whether what you were promised bears any resemblance to what gets delivered.
No one objects massively to Amazon having a returns policy.

Unfortunately, that's a very remainy version - 2nd Refers claim it's all about giving the public the final say, however the public (broadly) think they've already had the final say, and they know that a second referendum isn't being put to them in order to ensure democratic legitimacy, they are being told to change their minds because they are thicky racists.

To use your Amazon example, it's like Amazon have, through gritted teeth, sent you a dress/bike/book having repeatedly told you that it wouldn't suit you, and are now demanding that you return it because it make you look fat/thick and racist.

There's also the issue of a complete absence of trust or good faith that those who claim that were Leave to again win, that it would finally be implemented. Leave won last time, but remainy politicians have fought it tooth and nail, so why should anyone believe they wouldn't do so again?

 

[8ball]

Unfortunately, that's a very remainy version - 2nd Refers claim it's all about giving the public the final say, however the public (broadly) think they've already had the final say, and they know that a second referendum isn't being put to them in order to ensure democratic legitimacy, they are being told to change their minds because they are thicky racists.

To use your Amazon example, it's like Amazon have, through gritted teeth, sent you a dress/bike/book having repeatedly told you that it wouldn't suit you, and are now demanding that you return it because it make you look fat/thick and racist.

There's also the issue of a complete absence of trust or good faith that those who claim that were Leave to again win, that it would finally be implemented. Leave won last time, but remainy politicians have fought it tooth and nail, so why should anyone believe they wouldn't do so again?

Bollocks. It's perfectly normal in places more used to referendums to have a referendum in principle and then a referendum once details have been settled. No one has to change their mind if they don't want to, regardless of how fat, thick and/or racist they are.

The idea that nothing has changed in the last 2 and a half years and that you are asking the exact same question again is also bollocks.

 

[danny la rouge]

Depends on whether what you were promised bears any resemblance to what gets delivered.
No one objects massively to Amazon having a returns policy.

That’s once it’s been delivered. Right now we aren’t even at the stage of “where’s my stuff”; we’re at “please allow 19 days for delivery”.

 

[William of Walworth]

There's also the issue of a complete absence of trust or good faith that those who claim that were Leave to again win, that it would finally be implemented. Leave won last time, but remainy politicians have fought it tooth and nail, so why should anyone believe they wouldn't do so again?

kebabking -- So it's all Remainers' fault that Brexit hasn't happened yet??

That take on events surely underplays how badly the parcel of incompetence known as the Government** have gone about Brexit. You have said that Remainers have fought tooth and nail to stop Leave happening, but Leavers in the Government -- and Parliament -- bear at least some responsibilty.

**whether ministers are Remainy or Brexity, the lack of Brexit so far is much more a general Tory cockup than a Remain conspiracy, I'd say.

 

[8ball]

That’s once it’s been delivered. Right now we aren’t even at the stage of “where’s my stuff”; we’re at “please allow 19 days for delivery”.

After well over a year of confirmations that you’ve actually bought a bucket of cold sick.

 

[Wilf]

Bollocks. It's perfectly normal in places more used to referendums to have a referendum in principle and then a referendum once details have been settled. No one has to change their mind if they don't want to, regardless of how fat, thick and/or racist they are.

The idea that nothing has changed in the last 2 and a half years and that you are asking the exact same question again is also bollocks.

I wouldn't have a problem with there being a 2nd ref on the terms of the deal, providing it had been built in from the outset (though I'm personally neither a brexiteer nor a remainer, just a common or garden anticapitalist). But this would be something very different - a referendum to get round the politicians not delivering what the first ref decided upon.

 

[tommers]

I wouldn't have a problem with there being a 2nd ref on the terms of the deal, providing it had been built in from the outset (though I'm personally neither a brexiteer nor a remainer, just a common or garden anticapitalist). But this would be something very different - a referendum to get round the politicians not delivering what the first ref decided upon.

If they haven't delivered it then what's the next step? Just wait until they do? Or take whatever fucking nonsense they decide to serve up?

What if they can't? Do we just do this forever? Cos after two years of it I'm not sure how much more I can take.

 

[8ball]

I wouldn't have a problem with there being a 2nd ref on the terms of the deal, providing it had been built in from the outset (though I'm personally neither a brexiteer nor a remainer, just a common or garden anticapitalist). But this would be something very different - a referendum to get round the politicians not delivering what the first ref decided upon.

Yeah, that’s a common understanding of how advisory referendums work out in grown-up land.

I’m personally not a Brexiter or Remainer either, but I’m astonished by how some fusty old lefties manage to cling to the delusion that their sworn enemies were somehow going to deliver something in their best interests.

It was as if there was no possible outcome that was worse than not leaving the EU asap, under any conditions.

 

[8ball]

I should point out that I'm not under any illusion that a second referendum at this point would necessarily be a "good thing", or that anything goes "back in the box" at this point. And the Remainer delusion that "business as usual" was so great is something mostly only shared among people who were doing pretty well out of the status quo.

I am, however, a little surprised that more parties aren't pushing for it. Though I guess there's a fear of the same result. Or a more specific question being asked and the majority of the country deciding it wants to eat worms, ideally after digging up Winston Churchill.

Some kind of really "soft" Brexit is going to wind up a whole load of people, so it wouldn't surprise me if a version of May's deal is where we end up, in the event she isn't unseated before the extension ends.

 

[danny la rouge]

After well over a year of confirmations that you’ve actually bought a bucket of cold sick.

The analogy breaks down when we think of the electorate as one buyer. (I think the problem is the narrow majority. It makes some people think “if only”). The trouble is that the people who think Brexit is a bad deal and that any rewards are outweighed by the downsides are probably people who already thought that before casting their vote. People were told there’d be downsides, and they voted Leave anyway.

But there’s no justification for rerunning the vote just because the result is one you feel like saying “told you so” to.

 

[8ball]

The analogy breaks down when we think of the electorate as one buyer. (I think the problem is the narrow majority. It makes some people think “if only”). The trouble is that the people who think Brexit is a bad deal and that any rewards are outweighed by the downsides are probably people who already thought that before casting their vote. People were told there’d be downsides, and they voted Leave anyway.

But there’s no justification for rerunning the vote just because the result is one you feel like saying “told you so” to.

All analogies break down somewhere.
Most people I know who voted Brexit were not thinking of downsides, they've had a lot of time to be convinced that they were, though.
Not all of them have bought that line.

 

[danny la rouge]

All analogies break down somewhere.
Most people I know who voted Brexit were not thinking of downsides, they've had a lot of time to be convinced that they were, though.
Not all of them have bought that line.

I don’t really want to go back and forth over this for the millionth time. I honestly can’t see any justification for a second referendum at this point. (And I voted Remain). Others are completely convinced it’s the obvious move. That can’t be squared. I think they’re wrong, and that having a second referendum would cause more problems than the one they hope to solve.

 

[8ball]

I don’t really want to go back and forth over this for the millionth time. I honestly can’t see any justification for a second referendum at this point. (And I voted Remain). Others are completely convinced it’s the obvious move. That can’t be squared. I think they’re wrong, and that having a second referendum would cause more problems than the one they hope to solve.

I'm just surprised so few people are pushing for it. It wasn't really clear how any deliberation on the deal was going to play out, but that was back when everything was going to be SO easy.

Now we've gone from having squillions of extra money in the bank to hopefully having adequate food, and the best the cunts can offer is to say "yeah, but you're not that thick are you? you knew we were lying really, didn't you?". And it's quite amazing how many people are perfectly happy with that.

 

[andysays]

I don’t really want to go back and forth over this for the millionth time. I honestly can’t see any justification for a second referendum at this point. (And I voted Remain). Others are completely convinced it’s the obvious move. That can’t be squared. I think they’re wrong, and that having a second referendum would cause more problems than the one they hope to solve.

Maybe 8ball thinks you just need to be given another chance to re-think the issue and give your answer again...

 

[cupid_stunt]

I'm just surprised so few people are pushing for it.

You are?

Blimey, you seriously think another ref would solve anything?

 

[danny la rouge]

Maybe 8ball thinks you just need to be given another chance to re-think the issue and give your answer again...

I am the sort of person who when pestered about something will respond “OK, no, then”.

 

[andysays]

I am the sort of person who when pestered about something will respond “OK, no, then”.

Oh, come on danny, you know you don't really mean that...

 

[danny la rouge]

Aw, come on danny, you know you don't really mean that...

Ok, no, then.

 

[andysays]

Ok, no, then.

Are you sure you've taken into account that circumstances have completely changed since your previous answer?

 

[cupid_stunt]

 

[8ball]

You are?

Blimey, you seriously think another ref would solve anything?

Fuck’s sake.

Read often, do you?

 

[cupid_stunt]

Fuck’s sake.

Read often, do you?

I do.

I also understand why there's no majority in the house for a second ref, because it'll cause more problems and solve nothing.

Understand often, do you?

 

[kebabking]

I'm just surprised so few people are pushing for it. It wasn't really clear how any deliberation on the deal was going to play out, but that was back when everything was going to be SO easy.

Now we've gone from having squillions of extra money in the bank to hopefully having adequate food, and the best the cunts can offer is to say "yeah, but you're not that thick are you? you knew we were lying really, didn't you?". And it's quite amazing how many people are perfectly happy with that.

Again, a very remainy viewpoint - arch remainers obsess about the campaign and not about the voters, which is perhaps why remain lost.

Very few of those I know who voted leave believed it was all sunlit uplands with no aggro and no costs.

A bit less facination with Messrs Johnson and Farage and a bit more with people in Stockton, Kidderminster, Plymouth might have done the remain campaign - which I voted for - a great deal of good...

 

[redsquirrel]

Bollocks. It's perfectly normal in places more used to referendums to have a referendum in principle and then a referendum once details have been settled.

Really can you give us some examples?

EDIT: This isn't the case in either Australia or Ireland (the two countries whose referendums I'm most familiar with).

I wouldn't have a problem with there being a 2nd ref on the terms of the deal, providing it had been built in from the outset (though I'm personally neither a brexiteer nor a remainer, just a common or garden anticapitalist). But this would be something very different - a referendum to get round the politicians not delivering what the first ref decided upon.

Yes this is the point. Only the truly partisan would not see a 2nd ref as an attempt to stop the UK leaving the EU.

 

[Kaka Tim]

Theresa May dashes to Strasbourg in bid for Brexit compromise
PM to meet Juncker as Merkel says a ‘very important offer’ has been made to Britain

from the gaurdian.

I rekon she will turn up , rush into Junkers office full of expectation and he'll say "Id like to offer you this beautifully presented pyramid of Ferrero Rocher" and then fall about laughing before posting it on you tube.

 

[Teaboy]

It'll be about extending A50 I imagine.

 

[ska invita]

It'll be about extending A50 I imagine.

Reliant on a subsequent compromised cross party soft brexit.

 

[8ball]

Yes this is the point. Only the truly partisan would not see a 2nd ref as an attempt to stop the UK leaving the EU.

Yes, it would be a major (though dangerous) lever for the 48% and the remainers in Parliament, many of whom think a victory would put the genie back in the bottle. As I had attempted to explain.

As for whether it is a very remainy point to suggest a discrepancy between a hugh injection of cash and food poverty...

 

[8ball]

Reliant on a subsequent compromised cross party soft brexit.

Which will solve everything and deliver us unto the rolling meadows of majesic unicorn.

 

[cupid_stunt]

Looks like there could be an '11th hour' thing going on, in true EU tradition.