BREXIT Crunch time (part 38) WTF is going to happen next?

[Supine]

I might have missed something but I thought they were voting on alternatives to May's withdrawal agreement? Withdrawal agreement still needed obviously but not that one?

Either way, it's madness to help her stay in power.

No,and it's an important point. The withdrawal agreement is not being talked about for change with these vote options.

It's the Future Agreement which can be modified to incorporate CU or whichever choice if one is ever agreed. The problem with this is its not a legal document like the withdrawal agreement. This means a future Brexiteer can basically rip it up and start again on how our future relationship will be formed over the next few years.

 

[andysays]

Her Withdrawal Agreement with the EU is not a dead duck, though. If she concedes enough to Labour, they'd whip it through. May's people obviously thought/hoped that at some point the Lab backbenchers would have folded and backed it, (I did as well tbf), but they've held just enough party discipline to push her into this position.

What I was suggesting was that Corbyn makes it clear that the changes they would need to make Labour whip it through would be big enough that it would no longer be the deal she agreed with the EU, and that there would need to be an extension so that renegotiation could take place.

But what changes do you think they might agree to which would still make it the same deal and make that unnecessary?

 

[mwgdrwg]

Has Corbyn told her to fuck off yet?

 

[belboid]

Don't think I did.

You really did.

The WA itself basically just keeps the UK in a CU until a new FTA is drawn up. The problem hasn't been that, but what comes after. Labour would basically be happy for it to stay like that forever. But that isn't written into the WA, so Labour haven't voted for it. There would need to be a new political statement agreeing that that will (in one way or another) permanently be the case before Labour could agree.

 

[maomao]

The problem with this is its not a legal document like the withdrawal agreement. This means a future Brexiteer can basically rip it up and start again on how our future relationship will be formed over the next few years.

Once deals are signed of on things like the single market and efta they'll be no easier to get out of than the eu. In fact post Brexit probably harder.

 

[brogdale]

What I was suggesting was that Corbyn makes it clear that the changes they would need to make Labour whip it through would be big enough that it would no longer be the deal she agreed with the EU, and that there would need to be an extension so that renegotiation could take place.

But what changes do you think they might agree to which would still make it the same deal and make that unnecessary?

WA (as is) + CU + "workers' rights" (whatever that means)....the CU obviating the need for any NI backstop.
Trouble for Corbyn (as Supine says) is convincing the party that the vermin are not just lying to get it through, with Gove (or some other shit) waiting in the wings to chuck it all overboard in near future.

 

[fakeplasticgirl]

Has Corbyn told her to fuck off yet?

No he has said he’s “very happy” to meet May to discuss a compromise, according to the guardian.

 

[mwgdrwg]

No he has said he’s “very happy” to meet May to discuss a compromise, according to the guardian.

What an idiot.

 

[ska invita]

the two them need to work together to find some sort of plan that will actually command a majority so they can request an extension to negotiate the detail with the EU.

agreement between Corbyn and May should be impossible by default

No way is anything going to come of this meeting. Both of them are going through the motions

Has Corbyn told her to fuck off yet?

not yet, he'll tell her to her face

 

[belboid]

CU + "workers' rights" (whatever that means)

I think workers rights are covered by the CU. Even if not, they'd be covered by simply agreeing to at least match those of EU countries.

 

[redsquirrel]

What an idiot.

Why, it'd be ridiculous for him to do anything else in his position.

 

[fakeplasticgirl]

No he has said he’s “very happy” to meet May to discuss a compromise, according to the guardian.

What an idiot.

He’d look like an idiot if he didn’t agree to meet her.

 

[killer b]

Don't think I did.

Common Market 2.0 is below: the WA would be unchanged, only the political declaration altered - Labour whipped for this last night:

That this House –

(1) directs Her Majesty’s Government to –

(i) renegotiate the framework for the future relationship laid before the House on Monday 11 March 2019 with the title ‘Political Declaration setting out the framework for the future relationship between the European Union and the United Kingdom’ to provide that, on the conclusion of the Implementation Period and no later than 31 December 2020, the United Kingdom shall –

(a) accede to the European Free Trade Association (Efta) having negotiated a derogation from Article 56(3) of the Efta Agreement to allow UK participation in a comprehensive customs arrangement with the European Union,

(b) enter the Efta Pillar of the European Economic Area (EEA) and thereby render operational the United Kingdom’s continuing status as a party to the EEA Agreement and continuing participation in the Single Market,

(c) agree relevant protocols relating to frictionless agri-food trade across the UK/EU border,

(d) enter a comprehensive customs arrangement including a common external tariff, alignment with the Union Customs Code and an agreement on commercial policy, and which includes a UK say on future EU trade deals, at least until alternative arrangements that maintain frictionless trade with the European Union and no hard border on the island of Ireland have been agreed with the European Union,

(ii) negotiate with the EU a legally binding Joint Instrument that confirms that, in accordance with Article 2 of the Protocol on Ireland/Northern Ireland of the Withdrawal Agreement, the implementation of all the provisions of paragraph 1 (i) of this motion would cause the Protocol on Ireland/Northern Ireland to be superseded in full;

(2) resolves to make support for the forthcoming European Union (Withdrawal Agreement) Bill conditional upon the inclusion of provisions for a Political Declaration revised in accordance with the provisions of this motion to be the legally binding negotiating mandate for Her Majesty’s Government in the forthcoming negotiation of the future relationship between the United Kingdom and the European Union.

This is Kyle/Wilson - no demands made at all about what's in the WA, only that whatever it is, is subject to a confirmatory referendum - they whipped for this too:

That this House will not allow in this Parliament the implementation and ratification of any withdrawal agreement and any framework for the future relationship unless and until they have been approved by the people of the United Kingdom in a confirmatory public vote.

it's easy to find and check this stuff y'know.

 

[CRI]

 

[Supine]

Once deals are signed of on things like the single market and efta they'll be no easier to get out of than the eu. In fact post Brexit probably harder.

Those things are harder to get out of. The future declaration, which can be modified easily, is just a template document. It sets out the negotiation path to achieve whatever the final agreement will be. It's worthless and I hope corbyn and others realise this.

 

[marty21]

#longgrass again ffs

 

[Serge Forward]

Why, it'd be ridiculous for him to do anything else in his position.

As Corbyn is nothing more than a would-be manager of capitalism, I'm inclined to agree.

 

[gosub]

#longgrass again ffs

They"ve kicked so many cans into it, it's not really grass anymore

 

[rubbershoes]

The Express headline is a corker

Brexit LIVE: Rees-Mogg and Johnson FURIOUS at May plan to work with 'known Marxist' Corbyn

 

[SpackleFrog]

I thought yesterday was options that could be “tacked on” to the

You really did.

The WA itself basically just keeps the UK in a CU until a new FTA is drawn up. The problem hasn't been that, but what comes after. Labour would basically be happy for it to stay like that forever. But that isn't written into the WA, so Labour haven't voted for it. There would need to be a new political statement agreeing that that will (in one way or another) permanently be the case before Labour could agree.

Common Market 2.0 is below: the WA would be unchanged, only the political declaration altered - Labour whipped for this last night:

That this House –

(1) directs Her Majesty’s Government to –

(i) renegotiate the framework for the future relationship laid before the House on Monday 11 March 2019 with the title ‘Political Declaration setting out the framework for the future relationship between the European Union and the United Kingdom’ to provide that, on the conclusion of the Implementation Period and no later than 31 December 2020, the United Kingdom shall –

(a) accede to the European Free Trade Association (Efta) having negotiated a derogation from Article 56(3) of the Efta Agreement to allow UK participation in a comprehensive customs arrangement with the European Union,

(b) enter the Efta Pillar of the European Economic Area (EEA) and thereby render operational the United Kingdom’s continuing status as a party to the EEA Agreement and continuing participation in the Single Market,

(c) agree relevant protocols relating to frictionless agri-food trade across the UK/EU border,

(d) enter a comprehensive customs arrangement including a common external tariff, alignment with the Union Customs Code and an agreement on commercial policy, and which includes a UK say on future EU trade deals, at least until alternative arrangements that maintain frictionless trade with the European Union and no hard border on the island of Ireland have been agreed with the European Union,

(ii) negotiate with the EU a legally binding Joint Instrument that confirms that, in accordance with Article 2 of the Protocol on Ireland/Northern Ireland of the Withdrawal Agreement, the implementation of all the provisions of paragraph 1 (i) of this motion would cause the Protocol on Ireland/Northern Ireland to be superseded in full;

(2) resolves to make support for the forthcoming European Union (Withdrawal Agreement) Bill conditional upon the inclusion of provisions for a Political Declaration revised in accordance with the provisions of this motion to be the legally binding negotiating mandate for Her Majesty’s Government in the forthcoming negotiation of the future relationship between the United Kingdom and the European Union.

This is Kyle/Wilson - no demands made at all about what's in the WA, only that whatever it is, is subject to a confirmatory referendum - they whipped for this too:

That this House will not allow in this Parliament the implementation and ratification of any withdrawal agreement and any framework for the future relationship unless and until they have been approved by the people of the United Kingdom in a confirmatory public vote.

it's easy to find and check this stuff y'know.

Fair enough, I stand corrected. Although I'm surprised the Parliamentary Supremacy motion was designed to be tacked on to the withdrawal agreement.

Hard to keep up with Labour's shifting position but I think Corbyn's already significantly fucked it as I don't think he should be agreeing to something that keeps Britain in the customs union until 20XX and will likely be used to allow the EU to impose any withdrawal terms. But there we go seems like all the MP's are signed up to it.

I still don't think he should agree to help her get it through or that he should agree any compromise Brexit or whatever but there you go he probably will.

 

[danny la rouge]

The Express headline is a corker

Beyond parody.

 

[SpackleFrog]

I disagree. She has more faults than good attributes. However she has accepted the referdum result and although hamfisted, attempted to square the circle..

What she outlined doing today is nt unreasonable but outside EU's acceptable ways forward, their response, reading between the lines is get rid of May and anything is possible.

So we, potentially burn through 2 Prime Ministers and the largest plebiscite in British history to end up back where we started.

She's toast and so probably are the tories. But that is for the longer term. Now we stop rearranging deck chairs and tell the EU it's their turn to blink

I don't know what this means. I don't care if the EU wants May gone, I want May gone too.

 

[gosub]

I don't know what this means. I don't care if the EU wants May gone, I want May gone too.

So do I. I also want Brexit.

 

[SpackleFrog]

So do I. I also want Brexit.

I'm opposed to EU membership, but what Brexit means is another matter.

 

[prunus]

Trouble for Corbyn (as Supine says) is convincing the party that the vermin are not just lying to get it through

Which they are. ‘Workers rights’ will become an ‘aspiration’ that ‘has become an unfortunate casualty of the reality of the situation’

 

[HoratioCuthbert]

I'm opposed to EU membership, but what Brexit means is another matter.

Well it doesn’t mean an immortal Theresa May so he might have a point tactically, if Brexit is blocked after May is gone we may have fucked the Tories but any cunt that gets in power after may as well be Tory. May gone would be very much a short term absolute pleasure. Pure rock and hard place eh?

 

[SpackleFrog]

Well it doesn’t mean an immortal Theresa May so he might have a point tactically, if Brexit is blocked after May is gone we may have fucked the Tories but any cunt that gets in power after may as well be Tory. May gone would be very much a short term absolute pleasure. Pure rock and hard place eh?

Aye but if Corbyn facilitates something shitty driven by May then he's done, and there won't be anything immediately better on the menu.

 

[HoratioCuthbert]

Aye but if Corbyn facilitates something shitty driven by May then he's done, and there won't be anything immediately better on the menu.

The menu has been shit mince and shit burgers with the option of fried shit of a vegan for years mun. Demolish the restaurant!

 

[SpackleFrog]

The menu has been shit mince and shit burgers with the option of fried shit of a vegan for years mun. Demolish the restaurant!

Aye well you could be right there I may be getting to drawn into the whole shit show. Nonetheless, I still think what Corbyn *should* do is demand an election. But I doubt he will.

 

[yield]

Aye but if Corbyn facilitates something shitty driven by May then he's done, and there won't be anything immediately better on the menu.

May detests Corbyn even more than his own party. There'll have to be something less shitty on offer.