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Bernie is running

He made some good points. I always liked Bill & still do.

Which of his points do you think were good? I thought he was condescending, patronising and frankly if not outright racist then at the very least he was using multiple racist tropes. The Clintons have built their entire career stepping on the backs of black people and this exchange was no exception.
 
Which of his points do you think were good? I thought he was condescending, patronising and frankly if not outright racist then at the very least he was using multiple racist tropes. The Clintons have built their entire career stepping on the backs of black people and this exchange was no exception.
The 1994 crime bill was an effort to fight violent crime which dis proportionally affects blacks. Fighting violent crime is sometimes criticized as anti-black. I disagree. The opposite is the case. The law was widely supported by black community leaders as well as black politicians. In no way was it anti-black. Bernie voted for it also.

And I don't know where you come up with the idea that "The Clintons have built their entire career stepping on the backs of black people." Bill Clinton was very popular among blacks. He was referred to as the first black president. His post presidential office is on the top floor of a building in Harlem & the community welcomed him. I visited the building many years ago myself & the guards said he had been there the day before. The BLM people go too far sometimes.
 
The 1994 crime bill was an effort to fight violent crime which dis proportionally affects blacks. Fighting violent crime is sometimes criticized as anti-black. I disagree. The opposite is the case. The law was widely supported by black community leaders as well as black politicians. In no way was it anti-black. Bernie voted for it also.

And I don't know where you come up with the idea that "The Clintons have built their entire career stepping on the backs of black people." Bill Clinton was very popular among blacks. He was referred to as the first black president. His post presidential office is on the top floor of a building in Harlem & the community welcomed him. I visited the building many years ago myself & the guards said he had been there the day before. The BLM people go too far sometimes.

Okay well first of all Clinton repeated racist tropes when in full chutzpah-mode he shouted down the protester while portraying himself, the man with the microphone and the power as being shouted down by the protesters. The idea that Black Lives Matter is an organisation which should stop fighting against and protesting against police murders and mass incarceration because black people kill each other is a usual trope of racists even if you ignore the fact that the same is just as true of white people and Hispanics. People typically kill people they are familiar with in one way or another, the same is true of a good number of crimes including rape. This is the sort of thing that you expect to hear from Trump and it was no surprise to me that Trump's mob of 4chan-influenced cyber-racists were thrilled with it, they call him 'based Clinton' now for sticking it to 'uppity' black people.

The doubling down on the superpredator rhetoric was even worse. What was Hillary talking about when she mentioned 'superpredators'? Hillary wasn't talking about older people influencing kids, they were talking about the KIDS, the idea that black kids were feral because of generations of unemployment, welfare, crack cocaine and low IQs and that these kids needed to be brought to heel. That is what the protesters were objecting to.

The fact that the crime bill is anti-black and just anti-working class in general should be self-evident. The US locks up more people than any other country per capita including China ffs.

The fact is that both Clintons have been building their careers on the backs of black people since the start. One of her first political acts was to scapegoat the majority black Arkansas teachers' union for the state of that state's underfunded education system and her behaviour has altered very little since.

Yes the Clintons do well with some black people, particularly those who appoint themselves as community representatives and stand to benefit from the Clinton patronage machine after she wins the nomination, but that is changing with the overall population. It's no coincidence that Bernie does well, winning clear majorities in most cases, with younger black people. The internet has allowed them, like it has the rest of us, to easily know what the Clintons are really about and have been about for their whole political careers. In any case, US liberals are willing to accept the false consciousness argument about white working-class people who vote Republican so they should be willing to accept it about black working-class people vis-a-vis the Clintons.
 
It's understandable why BLM protesters are angry at the Clintons. They are too young to remember what things were like in the mid 90s. They don't remember the context in which Hillary's comments were made or the context in which the 94 crime bill was passed. There was a crack epidemic sweeping black neighborhoods. Black kids in gangs were slaughtering each other and anyone else who got in the way, over the drug trade and terrorizing black neighborhoods. What was the fed gov supposed to do? Just sit back and watch it happen?

The Clintons aren't racists. They reacted to the conditions that existed at the time. The day following the confrontation, Bill Clinton said he and the protesters were talking past each other and that needs to stop. He acknowledged he lost his temper. And the Clintons have also acknowledged that the crime bill resulted in too many blacks being locked up.

It's a generational issue, not racism.
 
It's understandable why BLM protesters are angry at the Clintons. They are too young to remember what things were like in the mid 90s. They don't remember the context in which Hillary's comments were made or the context in which the 94 crime bill was passed. There was a crack epidemic sweeping black neighborhoods. Black kids in gangs were slaughtering each other and anyone else who got in the way, over the drug trade and terrorizing black neighborhoods. What was the fed gov supposed to do? Just sit back and watch it happen?

The Clintons aren't racists. They reacted to the conditions that existed at the time. The day following the confrontation, Bill Clinton said he and the protesters were talking past each other and that needs to stop. He acknowledged he lost his temper. And the Clintons have also acknowledged that the crime bill resulted in too many blacks being locked up.

It's a generational issue, not racism.

Did you read the links I posted?

Written by someone of that generation.

The generational thing is disingenuous bullshit - the type of stuff the Clinton campaign is pushing to discredit all those silly little children voting for unicorns by backing Sanders - when they grow up and experience a bit of life they'll understand how things really work.

And finally: so what if some black leaders and voters supported the Clintons at the time? Again, the links I posted will help. There are plenty of working class people in this country who vote time and time again for the Tories - should we defer to them because they obviously know best?
 
It's understandable why BLM protesters are angry at the Clintons. They are too young to remember what things were like in the mid 90s. They don't remember the context in which Hillary's comments were made or the context in which the 94 crime bill was passed. There was a crack epidemic sweeping black neighborhoods. Black kids in gangs were slaughtering each other and anyone else who got in the way, over the drug trade and terrorizing black neighborhoods. What was the fed gov supposed to do? Just sit back and watch it happen?

The Clintons aren't racists. They reacted to the conditions that existed at the time. The day following the confrontation, Bill Clinton said he and the protesters were talking past each other and that needs to stop. He acknowledged he lost his temper. And the Clintons have also acknowledged that the crime bill resulted in too many blacks being locked up.

It's a generational issue, not racism.

It's probably only generational insofar that a few more younger people 'get it', though it certainly isn't just young people. Here's the excellent Michelle Alexander, author of The New Jim Crow, on Clinton's non-apology

Bill Clinton says that he “almost” wants to apologize for his remarkable episode yesterday — you know, when he embraced long-debunked, racially coded "super-predator" rhetoric, compared Black Lives Matter protestors to Republicans and insisted that they support murderers, and blamed his crime bill on black politicians. Personally, I am not demanding an apology from Bill Clinton. Instead, I would like to say thank you. Thank you, Bill, for giving the nation a ten-minute tutorial on everything that was wrong (and apparently remains wrong) with the “New Democrats” and their approach to racial politics.

Unfortunately much of the mainstream media seems to be buying (yet again) much of what Bill was selling yesterday. So to recap what should be obvious by now: Black politicians and activists were not asking for "get tough" measures and nothing else back in the 1990s. Some black politicians opposed the Clinton crime bill, and those who supported it weren’t seeking punishment and nothing more; they desperately wanted massive investment in jobs and schools so the young people trapped in communities where work had suddenly disappeared would have some hope of survival. It is a gross distortion to suggest that black people wanted billions of dollars slashed from child welfare, housing and other public benefits in order to fund an unprecedented prison building boom. It was Bill Clinton's deliberate political strategy -- one he championed along with the "New Democrats" -- to appeal to white swing voters by being tougher on struggling black communities than the Republicans had been, ramping up the drug war and gutting welfare. That strategy of "getting tough" while at the same time eviscerating the federal social safety net was NOT supported by many of the black politicians he seeks to use as cover. Rep. John Lewis (who Clinton referred to yesterday as the "last remaining hero of the civil rights movement") fiercely opposed welfare reform, accurately predicting that it would thrust more than a million more kids into severe poverty.

John Lewis said back then: “How can any person of faith, of conscience, vote for a bill that puts a million more kids into poverty? What does it profit a great nation to conquer the world, only to lose its soul?”

The young people challenging Bill Clinton yesterday were asking these very same questions. You may not agree with their tactics, but they were, in their own way, fighting for the soul of the Democratic party and American democracy itself. Whether our nation can be redeemed in the long run remains to be seen.
 
Actually I think that this is one of the saddest and crassest examples of the way in which Bill Clinton used black working-class people.

The Tragic End of the Woman Bill Clinton Exploited As Poster Child for Gutting Welfare

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for one woman, welfare reforms only made things worse. That woman was standing behind President Clinton when he signed the bill into law.

Lillie Harden

It was a hot August day in Washington when President Clinton signed into law his welfare overhaul. Behind him stood some of the politicians you'd expect, including Vice President Al Gore.

But who was that woman over his right shoulder? She was not a member of Congress or a cabinet secretary. She did not take part in drafting the bill. Her name was Lillie Harden, and she was asked by Clinton and Gore to come to the signing ceremony to say a few words.

Clinton met Harden, a 42-year-old mother from Little Rock, Arkansas, during a panel on welfare reform in that state more than a decade before the signing ceremony. She had spent two years getting AFDC benefits before finally getting work at a supermarket. Clinton reportedly asked her what she liked best about being off welfare. She answered, “When my boy goes to school and they say what does your mama do for a living, he can give an answer.”

During her speech at the signing ceremony, Harden talked about how her children pushed her to get back to work and how she did job training in Arkansas to get off welfare and into work. “When I got my job my son was so proud of me, but I made a deal with him, I told him, I'm going to work every day and take my work seriously."

She concluded her remarks by saying that Bill Clinton was “the man who started my success and the beginning of my children's future.” On C-SPAN footage, she was identified with the tag “Former Welfare Recipient," which was, after all, her role in the ceremony, to prove to progressive critics that a former welfare mom could go on to be successful and raise children to be successful if only she got a low-wage job instead.

...

But as the 1996 election came and went, and welfare reform became law of the land, the political system lost interest in Harden. She was no longer in headlines, and didn't receive invitations to address the press corps in the White House. In 2005, journalist Jason DeParle wrote a book chronicling the struggles of several poor families. In American Dream: Three Women, Ten Kids and a Nation's Drive to End Welfare, DeParle followed up with Harden:

In talking about Lillie Harden, Bill Clinton had stressed how much her move from welfare to work would mean to her kids....Harden did have a straight-A daughter who went to college. But the son that Clinton was celebrating was better known for his rap sheet than his grades. Between the time Governor Clinton first told his story and the time President Clinton revived it, the teenage Carlton Harden had already served two years for shooting some students outside a North Little Rock high school. In the past decade, he has been arrested twenty times, for offenses ranging from disorderly conduct to possession of crack cocaine with intent to deliver; he's gone to drug charges twice.

“Oh boy, it almost killed me,” Lillie Harden told me, speaking of her son's problems. “He got out there and act like he don't have no brain.” Harden had a stroke in 2002 and wanted me to ferry a message back to Clinton, asking if he could help her get on Medicaid. She had received it on welfare, but had been rejected now, and she couldn't afford her $450 monthly bill for prescription drugs. More sad than bitter, she said of her work: “It didn't pay off in the end.”

AlterNet sought to interview Harden to see if her condition had improved, and learned that she died in March of last year, at the age of 59. She was living in North Little Rock, Arkansas at the time, a community where a fifth of the population lives below the poverty line.

Eliminating the safety net for Lillie Harden did not transform her family the way Clinton boasted. The pride she had in getting a job gave way to the harsh socioeconomic realities of her life.

The same was true for many others across the country—the loss of government aid did not instantaneously create living wage jobs with benefits, but rather sunk them further into poverty. This was perhaps most obvious during the Great Recession. One of the changes the welfare reform law made was to transform TANF into a block grant of money given to the states. That means that even as unemployment skyrocketed, “because the block grant has never been increased or adjusted for inflation, states received 32 percent less in real (inflation-adjusted) dollars in 2014 than they did in 1997,” according to a report from the Center on Budget and Policy Priorities.

It's a stark illustration of how President Bill Clinton presided over one of the harshest systematic cuts to the poor of any president.
 
There's also his executing of the black man in order to send a message that he was tough. And his campaign at the prison where the KKK was founded (or their spiritual home, or whatever) with all the black inmates lined up behind him.

There's a litany of stuff that at its least worst sounds a bit unfortunate and at its worst is calculating and racist manoeuvering in order to capture a section of right wing voters.
 
There's also his executing of the black man in order to send a message that he was tough. And his campaign at the prison where the KKK was founded (or their spiritual home, or whatever) with all the black inmates lined up behind him.

There's a litany of stuff that at its least worst sounds a bit unfortunate and at its worst is calculating and racist manoeuvering in order to capture a section of right wing voters.
WTF? Who, where, what? OK, I can google it but do you have links right now?
 
Clinton refused to grant clemency. Rector was executed on January 24, 1992. It is unlikely he had any idea what was about to happen. When he had his last meal, Rector set the dessert aside for later, even though there wouldn’t be a later. And in a pitiful and poignant detail, the night before his execution, watching Clinton on television, Rector said that he planned to vote for him in November.

How could anyone continue to make excuses for him?
 
Yesterday Hillary decided to proclaim that Africa should stop blaming all its problems on colonialism and snap out of it and help itself rather than rely on aid from the US.
 
There's also his executing of the black man in order to send a message that he was tough. And his campaign at the prison where the KKK was founded (or their spiritual home, or whatever) with all the black inmates lined up behind him.
Ricky Ray Rector deserved execution.

The facts, troubling as they may be for the Clinton haters:

He committed a murder.
He agreed to give himself up to the police at his mother's house.
He then murdered the cop waiting at his mother's house to met him give himself up.
In fleeing the 2nd murder he shot himself in the head. That's why he
he was mentally damaged & thought he could finish his desert after his execution.
Ricky Ray Rector - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
 
Fucking hell. I never had you pegged as being like this.
The Ricky Ray Rector story is often repeated to bash Bill Clinton. I'm simply providing the facts.

I think Bill Clinton was a good president. I like him. I did a little volunteer work for him in his first presidential campaign & was in the crowd when he had a rally in Portland. When someone bashes him without providing the facts, I defend him.

I don't like Hillary much. She's too hawkish on foreign policy & too close to the financial industry that has given her tons of money. But if the choice is her or Trump or her or Cruz.........there is no choice. I'll vote for her. I'll vote for anyone who'll keep another Repub out of the White House.
 
I've noticed lots of bernie bumper stickers lately, and after that some vote carson :D, but not much else.

I was wonderin if Sanders was like a green party plant into the democratic party or something, until i followed up on youtube to see some of the latest by Chomsky, Nader, and Hedges. Chomsky seemed to go easy on him calling him a "new deal" type candidacy, while Nader and Hedges let him have it by pointing out his voting record as senator, mainly for sticking up for Israel and big military spending (also pointing out U.S. conducts more spending and war than what is even appropriated in the budget :O)

I've been chomping on some of Hedges program called "Days of Revolt", and it wouldn't bother me a bit to see a Green Party revival.

Watching the interview with their presidential candidate Jill Stein now, and find that very interesting.



The interview with Nader, i didnt even realize how much he had to do with consumer protection laws passed in the early 70s.



And watch these guys speak about Detroit!


sent from tapatio talk
 
The Ricky Ray Rector story is often repeated to bash Bill Clinton. I'm simply providing the facts.

I think Bill Clinton was a good president. I like him. I did a little volunteer work for him in his first presidential campaign & was in the crowd when he had a rally in Portland. When someone bashes him without providing the facts, I defend him.

I don't like Hillary much. She's too hawkish on foreign policy & too close to the financial industry that has given her tons of money. But if the choice is her or Trump or her or Cruz.........there is no choice. I'll vote for her. I'll vote for anyone who'll keep another Repub out of the White House.

I have no idea how you can say you like Bill Clinton and then turn around and say that you think Hillary is too close to the finance industry or too hawkish. On both issues he was just as bad as she was as Secretary of State and will no doubt be just as bad as President.
 
"The facts" seem to be whatever you think backs up your liking of good ole Bill.

There were plenty of facts in the article I linked to.

It appears we have a fundamental disagreement over whether it is right to put to death a) anyone at all, and b) a man who is mentally disabled to the point of being a child. Regardless of a person's crimes I believe it's not right to do 'a' so I would especially believe it's not right to do 'b'.

As for the rest of it, I suggest you spend some time reading the Michelle Alexander pieces above. You haven't said whether you have or not.
 
As for the rest of it, I suggest you spend some time reading the Michelle Alexander pieces above. You haven't said whether you have or not.
I did and I don't understand how Bill Clinton is responsible for locking up the huge number of black people. Federal prisons hold less than about 10% of the American prison population. But maybe I'm missing something. If so, I'd like someone to explain.
Mass Incarceration: The Whole Pie 2016 | Prison Policy Initiative

And I don't like her proposal to ditch the Democratic party and start a 3d party. They fail repeatedly.
 
I have no idea how you can say you like Bill Clinton and then turn around and say that you think Hillary is too close to the finance industry or too hawkish. On both issues he was just as bad as she was as Secretary of State and will no doubt be just as bad as President.
Bill wasn't very hawkish. The Kosovo war wasn't huge. I don't know how close he was to the financial industry. I recall he had a lot of support from high tech. He seemed like a decent person for a politician. Hillary is a bought & paid for politician & I don't trust her. Polling shows a huge % of Americans don't either. I'd much rather see Bernie in the WH but I'll vote for Hillary in the general against any candidate the increasingly dangerous Repubs put up if that's the choice.
 
I have no idea how you can say you like Bill Clinton and then turn around and say that you think Hillary is too close to the finance industry or too hawkish. On both issues he was just as bad as she was as Secretary of State and will no doubt be just as bad as President.

I believe that the 2008 crash wouldn't have happened if Bill Clinton hadn't gone along with Greenspan in repealing Glass-Steagal.
 
His housing policy lead to the collapse of Fannie Mae and Freddie Mac too.

If you're talking about prohibiting red-lining, it isn't true. There's this meme out there that banks were "forced" to lend money to poor people. All the law required was that the banks couldn't ban entire neighborhoods from getting loans. They had to judge the viability of the loan purely on individual factors.

Now, if you're talking about the ability to bundle and sell mortgages as an investment vehicle, then you might have point. That bundling allowed otherwise unsalable loans to be packaged with better loans and tagged with a AAA rating. It was basically legal fraud aimed at selling crap to investors.
 
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