Beating the Fascists: The authorised history of Anti-Fascist Action

[bamalama]

Tomorrow I shall be testing you on sudoku.

Noooooooo...

 

[DaveCinzano]

It's okay, it's neo-nazi sudoku so all the possible answers are either 18 or 88.

 

[TopCat]

Ah right,took a minute for the penny to drop there...

me too!

 

[Pickman's model]

It's okay, it's neo-nazi sudoku so all the possible answers are either 18 or 88.

i hadn't realised the fash were THAT thick.

 

[DaveCinzano]

 

[bignose1]

That picture's not in Ireland by any chance,landscape looks familiar

Yeah it was in Cavan on Lough Tallagh

 

[bignose1]

Even by your own admission (as you remind us seemingly on a daily basis- what is that about btw?) you were still working for Searchlight up to 1994, which of course was also the same year that the BNP threw in the towel.

Prior to that all contact between you and Manc AFA was severed first after the Rochdale arrests, and again, after Hann brought you back in, as a result of the Nolan near fiasco.

So you will tell us won't you, when exactly were you working for AFA - in an exclusive capacity?

As for the rest of, a Freudian delight. As ever.

The only fiasco to do with Nolan was the sledgehammer you brought in to crack a nut and fuck up what could have been a potential intelligence benefit and also to save the fellahs family from a very unpleasant fate. It was me who done the leg work on that only for your lot to typically fuck it up.

 

[bamalama]

Yeah it was in Cavan on Lough Tallagh

Fucking hell i can't believe i spotted that,got family in cyavan and i think we've been canoeing/kayaking on that lough...i'm quite pleased with meself.

 

[bignose1]

Still for someone who dosen't care, threads entitled 'Beating the Fascists' seem have an unhealthy attraction for you?
First on Indymedia (500 posts in total - most of them sheer poison, some even under your own name) and now on here?

Also, from someone who vigorously denies that a) you and Hann were unaware an AFA book was in the pipeline and b) No Retreat was not designed to function as 'spoiler', 'we beat you to it'! sort of says otherwise.

Sheer poison so you forget your own fucking Red Action forum. More than 500 posts of utter shite inspired by you under whatever names it was still mainly your outfit..As far as an AFA book was in the pipeline..so what I had an idea in 1986 and had most of my stuff ready. Why should I worry about what you had in the piepeline...Im not answereable to you. Beating you to it is your main beef and you cant cope with it. Move on and get a hobby.

 

[bignose1]

Fucking hell i can't believe i spotted that,got family in cyavan and i think we've been canoeing/kayaking on that lough...i'm quite pleased with meself.

Nice one bam...the land/fields near to where we fish is owned by the O'Dowds...they own the big caff in Killashandra (come out yea black & tans) on the high street....wait for it....opposite the Shamrock pub ffs.

 

[bignose1]

Well 'messy' is one way of looking at it. The indymedia thread was in fact part of a determined attempt by blackening the name of the author's ('pervert, rapist, paedo') to intimidate the Freedom Press collective in pulling out of the production. There were numerous phone calls, letters and emails along similar lines. Both Tilzey and Matthew Collins were known to be involved.

Had it been say any small apolitical publishing house they would have folded.In point of fact after months of the treatment FP actually nearly buckled themselves. The final vote to publish was won by just a single vote 5-4. People were told to bring their 'stab vests' for the launch and so forth. Needless to say no one showed up on the day. Immediately after publication FP/authors began to recieve threatning letters from libel lawyers Carter Ruck.

Just this week, for their temerity in defying Searchlight, FP have been forced to shell out a £4,000 to, yes, (the alternative would likely be bankruptcy) you guessed it a Searchlight photographer for using photographs FP picked from the AFA portfolio with a supporting letter from, yes, comrade Gerry Gable stating that even AFA were not authorised to use them. So this was used to prove an 'aggravating factor' meaning even more money from FP. And so it goes on.


You still think we are all on the same side really and it might all be settled by an exchange of pm's?

The same Carter Ruck you used to sue the labour party for their temerity in Oxford tsch tsch

 

[bamalama]

Nice one bam...the land/fields near to where we fish is owned by the O'Dowds...they own the big caff in Killashandra (come out yea black & tans) on the high street....wait for it....opposite the Shamrock pub ffs.

Don't know the shandra really,just passed through it. My lot are more cavan town way,still chuffed as fuck i spotted it though...

 

[Joe Reilly]

The same Carter Ruck you used to sue the labour party for their temerity in Oxford tsch tsch

The differences were that the Labour Party were caught out in a big fat lie and the IWCA had the courage to sue. It cost them a total of £30,000 in total. On here you still claim BTF lied about Hann, that he was set up and so on. But when it came to the crunch the use of Carter Ruck was exposed as just another ruse to try and intimidate Freedom Press. At the moment of truth your advice to Louise, (Hann's missus) was not to sue. How come?

 

[audiotech]

Yes Joe, and well done to the IWCA for exposing their big fat lie.

 

[Joe Reilly]

The only fiasco to do with Nolan was the sledgehammer you brought in to crack a nut and fuck up what could have been a potential intelligence benefit and also to save the fellahs family from a very unpleasant fate. It was me who done the leg work on that only for your lot to typically fuck it up.

'A potential intellegince benefit' to whom?

 

[Joe Reilly]

Yes Joe, and well done to the IWCA for exposing their big fat lie.

Well the thing was that this was just one of many - that Stuart Craft was convicted drug dealer etc - the difference, the classic error one of their cllrs made on this occassion was to put it in print.

 

[Joe Reilly]

Sheer poison so you forget your own fucking Red Action forum. More than 500 posts of utter shite inspired by you under whatever names it was still mainly your outfit..As far as an AFA book was in the pipeline..so what I had an idea in 1986 and had most of my stuff ready. Why should I worry about what you had in the piepeline...Im not answereable to you. Beating you to it is your main beef and you cant cope with it. Move on and get a hobby.

Some of the posts on the Red Action may indeed have been unpleasant to you precisely because they were true. Everyone guessed, what the purpose of the book was and you didn't disappoint.

 

[bignose1]

The differences were that the Labour Party were caught out in a big fat lie and the IWCA had the courage to sue. It cost them a total of £30,000 in total. On here you still claim BTF lied about Hann, that he was set up and so on. But when it came to the crunch the use of Carter Ruck was exposed as just another ruse to try and intimidate Freedom Press. At the moment of truth your advice to Louise, (Hann's missus) was not to sue. How come?

So why complain when people ask about YOUR investigation...!!

 

[bignose1]

'A potential intellegince benefit' to whom?

Ive ran the anti fascist intelligence scene in Mcr since the mid 80's....unilaterally since the mid 90's....

 

[bignose1]

Well the thing was that this was just one of many - that Stuart Craft was convicted drug dealer etc - the difference, the classic error one of their cllrs made on this occassion was to put it in print.

OOoooooo....but its ok for you and co to libel/slander/defame..............fucking pussies

 

[Joe Reilly]

OOoooooo....but its ok for you and co to libel/slander/defame..............fucking pussies

You still don't get it do you - a libel/slander is when you knowingly lie. Telling the truth, even if ugly, even if injurious is neither slander nor libel. Why is that you seem to have trouble telling the difference? For instance, your story about getting on the NF coach by mistake is a made-up story to pad out your book. So on that basis someone can now legally call you a liar. On the otherhand the lowdown on Hann in BTF is the truth.
As well you know. Which is why, despite helpfully betraying the likes of 'Terry' and 'Andy' to Carter Ruck you didn't fancy it being tested in a court of law.

Not because, of any concern about the costs that would be incurred by Hann's missus should she pursue it, but because as Hann's buddy she would have expected you to testify in court. And sensibly you didn't fancy that at all did you? 'It's good a man knows his limitations' as someone once put it.

But, you still want have your cake and eat it, and so come on here and casually and routinely accuse others of lying pathologically while at the same lying in what might well be described as a pathological fashion about them.

It does rather seem that every time you find yourself in a corner rather than reason your way out, as someone who was telling the truth might choose to do, you opt instead to up the ante by inventing something else; something you failed, in the previous near *decade of exchanges to mention at all!
Of the recent examples from an extensive back catalogue, for me anyway, the stand-out allegation has to be the of 'gangstering of Leeds AFA'.

Who, what, where, when and why? In your own time.



*(RA forum and Indymedia included)

 

[bignose1]

You still don't get it do you - a libel/slander is when you knowingly lie. Telling the truth, even if ugly, even if injurious is neither slander nor libel. Why is that you seem to have trouble telling the difference? For instance, your story about getting on the NF coach by mistake is a made-up story to pad out your book. So on that basis someone can now legally call you a liar. On the otherhand the lowdown on Hann in BTF is the truth.
As well you know. Which is why, despite helpfully betraying the likes of 'Terry' and 'Andy' to Carter Ruck you didn't fancy it being tested in a court of law.

Not because, of any concern about the costs that would be incurred by Hann's missus should she pursue it, but because as Hann's buddy she would have expected you to testify in court. And sensibly you didn't fancy that at all did you? 'It's good a man knows his limitations' as someone once put it.

But, you still want have your cake and eat it, and so come on here and casually and routinely accuse others of lying pathologically while at the same lying in what might well be described as a pathological fashion about them.

It does rather seem that every time you find yourself in a corner rather than reason your way out, as someone who was telling the truth might choose to do, you opt instead to up the ante by inventing something else; something you failed, in the previous near *decade of exchanges to mention at all!
Of the recent examples from an extensive back catalogue, for me anyway, the stand-out allegation has to be the of 'gangstering of Leeds AFA'.

Who, what, where, when and why? In your own time.



*(RA forum and Indymedia included)

I probably know and your ramblings make it a ittle easier exactly why Daves missus chose to pursue you orinially with your pathological and continuous lying backed up by your cohorts. posing now as victims. In court your game would have been up and your 15 year campaign of subterfuge over those events exposed.You have history. A lot of it when it comes to people standing in your way. She in the end I assume, decided she didnt( or her children) fancy being on the end result of some grisly campaign which had already began apace, Me well you assume again regrdless of what I say. My contribution to the Carter Ruck thing will be taken up with them on confidentiallity grounds so Im saying nothing yet. And the old was I on the coach chestnut. Well what else wasnt I on ..Kingsbury..any Chapel Mrkts....Bury St Eds...Leicester....Ken Lib...yes ask JP he'll fill in the gaps for you. As Ive said before it doesnt matter one inch what YOU think. Again all your bluster....though you should of all people understand about false? allegations from old comrades. It goes with your nature O'Shea and your MO.For the Leeds boxes...tick,tick,tick,tick and tick. There done. Youve passed.

 

[ayatollah]

Apart from the highly amusing , but untrue, "NF coach to Lewisham", intro story to "No Retreat", and the claimed personal presence by Bignose at the "battle of Piccadilly" (working a fish stall at the time - SOLID alibi - and so added credibility to my somewhat weaker one !), everything else Bignose writes in NR (up to 1987 anyway) is, I can confirm, pretty accurate (within the confusion/conflation of particular events - hardly surprising after so much time had passed).

As I've said before, Bignose has an anti-fascist past to be proud of, whatever he did or didn't do later on . And he had a perfect right to put it in a book, WITHOUT asking permission from the self established "official authorities" who make claim to BtF being in some unexplained way "the authorised history" . To be frank the accusation of "agendas" around No Retreat, is pretty rich, (true as the accusation may , or may not, be), given the sectarian platform that BtF in turn provides for the particular political positions of the IWCA in the Introduction and conclusion sections, eg, on "multiculturalism" as understood very individually by the IWCA in particular, and the contempteous writing off of the UK "Middle class Left". Let me be clear, despite some of the anti fascist activities in Manchester being covered in Btf, the overall politics of Manchester "Squaddism" were ALWAYS based solidly within the Revolutionery Socialist tradition, rather than whatever politics the ex remnants of RA and IWCA use BtF as a platform to promote. Despite this caveat, like "No Retreat" , "Beating the Fascists" is also a rattling good anti-fascist book. Maybe that's ALL that matters , and all that should matter, to the younger reader ?

 

[bignose1]

Apart from the highly amusing , but untrue, "NF coach to Lewisham", intro story to "No Retreat", and the claimed personal presence by Bignose at the "battle of Piccadilly" (working a fish stall at the time - SOLID alibi - and so added credibility to my somewhat weaker one !), everything else Bignose writes in NR (up to 1987 anyway) is, I can confirm, pretty accurate (within the confusion/conflation of particular events - hardly surprising after so much time had passed).

As I've said before, Bignose has an anti-fascist past to be proud of, whatever he did or didn't do later on . And he had a perfect right to put it in a book, WITHOUT asking permission from the self established "official authorities" who make claim to BtF being in some unexplained way "the authorised history" . To be frank the accusation of "agendas" around No Surrender, is pretty rich, (true as the accusation may , or may not, be), given the sectarian platform that BtF in turn provides for the particular political positions of the IWCA in the Introduction and conclusion sections, eg, on "multiculturalism" as understood very individually by the IWCA in particular, and the contempteous writing off of the UK "Middle class Left". Let me be clear, despite some of the anti fascist activities in Manchester being covered in Btf, the overall politics of Manchester "Squaddism" were ALWAYS based solidly within the Revolutionery Socialist tradition, rather than whatever politics the ex remnants of RA and IWCA use BtF as a platform to promote. Despite this caveat, like "No Retreat" , "Beating the Fascists" is also a rattling good anti-fascist book. Maybe that's ALL that matters , and all that should matter, to the younger reader ?

JP we will agree to disagree on what you consider a true record of events.....as you remember we were very active at the time in and around the city centre and I could possibly be out on some things but not the main stuff ffs..Ive also not deliberately tried to beef myself up...I left out a very large chunk of stuff too for obvious reasons. I aslo left out mentioning many things I was involved in during my time with Searchlight, that too for obvious reasons. Searchlight have not been in my life for a long time apart from getting the mag and a few casual meetings on demos etc. Since the mid 90's Ive cultivated a small team to monitor stuff in the MCR area yet I find myself here again defending myself against people who Ive had no dealing for over 20 years reducing my a/f involvement to a brief interlude in the 80's. No Retreat was not a spoiler...get over it...and please when it comes to Porkies Ive seen and heard enough from the old RA lot to last a lifetime. Their disgraceful bullying of the Mcr Martyrs Committee and other groups who didnt agree. Oshea you cant have it both ways ...you were accused of something unpleasant only for an 'internal enquiry' to 'clear' you (and that therefore makes your accuser a liar)..Dave was also subject to an internal enquiry which stitched him up and at which you lied covered up and concocted evidence........ but he got not guilty in a court!. The same system you used to relieve the Labour party of 30k. Dave is dead and that means an easy target for you....proving that at heart you are really a gang of cowards and hypocrites.

 

[miktheword]

[Dave was also subject to an internal enquiry which stitched him up and at which you lied covered up and concocted evidence........ but he got not guilty in a court!. The same system you used to relieve the Labour party of 30k. Dave is dead and that means an easy target for you....proving that at heart you are really a gang of cowards and hypocrites.[/quote]


But we all know Steve, getting a guilty or not, in court, is no proof of guilt or innocence in OUR eyes (those who were involved in such things)
BtF makes the point about Dave's defence being constructed for him. Are you saying that was a lie and that the book stitches him up on this?

I also looked back to page 22 of this thread and read the post by 'Jackie' specifically about the charges against Dave and later on the same page, a comprehensive account of Dave's time and activities in Mcr. by Demu

http://www.urban75.net/forums/threa...history-of-anti-fascist-action.251690/page-22

Louise,
It would clear things up if you could explain why if someone had just been hit on the way home from the pub Dave ended up on street robbery charges. Also how he ended up with the victims student Library card on him when arrested?

Dave spoke often about the night in the Sporren, the incident with the heavy metal fans at the comedy night benefit for disabled bikers, but never before have I heard anyone link the two incidents not even Steve T who has put forward many different explanations for what took place. I understood the benefit night was months before, sometime around christmas.
Sorry Louise but Dave didn't tell you the truth, the mugging was out of character, stupid and he was obviously ashamed.
jackie 68, Nov 17, 2010


Can I ask if you're saying these two accounts are false as well?

 

[bignose1]

[Dave was also subject to an internal enquiry which stitched him up and at which you lied covered up and concocted evidence........ but he got not guilty in a court!. The same system you used to relieve the Labour party of 30k. Dave is dead and that means an easy target for you....proving that at heart you are really a gang of cowards and hypocrites.

But we all know Steve, getting a guilty or not, in court, is no proof of guilt or innocence in OUR eyes (those who were involved in such things)
BtF makes the point about Dave's defence being constructed for him. Are you saying that was a lie and that the book stitches him up on this?

I also looked back to page 22 of this thread and read the post by 'Jackie' specifically about the charges against Dave and later on the same page, a comprehensive account of Dave's time and activities in Mcr. by Demu

http://www.urban75.net/forums/threa...history-of-anti-fascist-action.251690/page-22

Louise,
It would clear things up if you could explain why if someone had just been hit on the way home from the pub Dave ended up on street robbery charges. Also how he ended up with the victims student Library card on him when arrested?

Dave spoke often about the night in the Sporren, the incident with the heavy metal fans at the comedy night benefit for disabled bikers, but never before have I heard anyone link the two incidents not even Steve T who has put forward many different explanations for what took place. I understood the benefit night was months before, sometime around christmas.
Sorry Louise but Dave didn't tell you the truth, the mugging was out of character, stupid and he was obviously ashamed.
jackie 68, Nov 17, 2010


Can I ask if you're saying these two accounts are false as well?[/quote]

Im sorry I dont reply to people I dont know on these matters....more than welcome otherwise

 

[Joe Reilly]

Apart from the highly amusing , but untrue, "NF coach to Lewisham", intro story to "No Retreat", and the claimed personal presence by Bignose at the "battle of Piccadilly" (working a fish stall at the time - SOLID alibi - and so added credibility to my somewhat weaker one !), everything else Bignose writes in NR (up to 1987 anyway) is, I can confirm, pretty accurate (within the confusion/conflation of particular events - hardly surprising after so much time had passed).

As I've said before, Bignose has an anti-fascist past to be proud of, whatever he did or didn't do later on . And he had a perfect right to put it in a book, WITHOUT asking permission from the self established "official authorities" who make claim to BtF being in some unexplained way "the authorised history" . To be frank the accusation of "agendas" around No Retreat, is pretty rich, (true as the accusation may , or may not, be), given the sectarian platform that BtF in turn provides for the particular political positions of the IWCA in the Introduction and conclusion sections, eg, on "multiculturalism" as understood very individually by the IWCA in particular, and the contempteous writing off of the UK "Middle class Left". Let me be clear, despite some of the anti fascist activities in Manchester being covered in Btf, the overall politics of Manchester "Squaddism" were ALWAYS based solidly within the Revolutionery Socialist tradition, rather than whatever politics the ex remnants of RA and IWCA use BtF as a platform to promote. Despite this caveat, like "No Retreat" , "Beating the Fascists" is also a rattling good anti-fascist book. Maybe that's ALL that matters , and all that should matter, to the younger reader ?

Once again you have the wrong end of the stick. To begin with, ST certainly had every right to write a book about his exploits - without needing to ask permission from anyone. And if he had confined himself to what he did, there would be no problems even though the occassional gratutious embellishment does, I would argue, provide an important clue to character when it comes to matters of recall on related matters later.

But as we all know he didn't confine himself to tales of derring do in Manc and surrounding areas. Instead he decided to bolt his account to Hann's account and with a clever weave (nearly all dates removed for example) present No Retreat, not only as the history of 'the squad' but also as the comprehensive history of AFA, not just in Manchester or the North West but nationally, and from beginning to end, in order to beat AFA to the punch.

From this twisted perpestive the 'end of AFA' came naturally with Hann's 'disgraceful' expulsion on trumped up charges by senior members/'arm-chair generals' who had lost the stomach for the fight (over-night apparently). This loss of nerve led not only to the near immediate collapse of AFA and 'betrayal of the anti-fascist movement' but led directly to the subsequent triumph of the BNP electorally, you are invited to conclude. Ultimately, it was AFA, not the BNP which capitulated. It is not the necessary slanders of individuals along the way to make it credible, that is not the real source of disgust, for anyone defending it or who otherwise chooses to be associated with it.

Pound for pound AFA was one of the best organisations to come out of the left post-war. Not only did it stop the BNP, B&H, and C18 it forced the far-right (something not achieved either by the 43 Group or the ANL mark 1 incidentally) as a whole into 'a more circutious route to their objectives', and thus buying the entire left time to regroup, and to date there has still be no return to the streets in any sustained fashion.

Surely what matters most to the next generation of anti-fascists is to know exactly what happened back then. In terms of actual history 'all that really matters' to them is the unvarnished truth, warts and all. I would argue that to endorse No Retreat as 'rattling good read' is completely wrongheaded and does 'younger readers' in particular no favours. To put it another way, imagine for a moment it was the BNP that actually won the 'battle for the streets; but BTF nevertheless argued that the reverse was the case? It and everyone that identified with it would be open to ridicule and deservedly so.
It is no less important that precisely the same standards are applied to No Retreat.

 

[bignose1]

Once again you have the wrong end of the stick. To begin with, ST certainly had every right to write a book about his exploits - without needing to ask permission from anyone. And if he had confined himself to what he did, there would be no problems even though the occassional gratutious embellishment does, I would argue, provide an important clue to character when it comes to matters of recall on related matters later.

But as we all know he didn't confine himself to tales of derring do in Manc and surrounding areas. Instead he decided to bolt his account to Hann's account and with a clever weave (nearly all dates removed for example) present No Retreat, not only as the history of 'the squad' but also as the comprehensive history of AFA, not just in Manchester or the North West but nationally, and from beginning to end, in order to beat AFA to the punch.

From this twisted perpestive the 'end of AFA' came naturally with Hann's 'disgraceful' expulsion on trumped up charges by senior members/'arm-chair generals' who had lost the stomach for the fight (over-night apparently). This loss of nerve led not only to the near immediate collapse of AFA and 'betrayal of the anti-fascist movement' but led directly to the subsequent triumph of the BNP electorally, you are invited to conclude. Ultimately, it was AFA, not the BNP which capitulated. It is not the necessary slanders of individuals along the way to make it credible, that is not the real source of disgust, for anyone defending it or who otherwise chooses to be associated with it.

Pound for pound AFA was one of the best organisations to come out of the left post-war. Not only did it stop the BNP, B&H, and C18 it forced the far-right (something not achieved either by the 43 Group or the ANL mark 1 incidentally) as a whole into 'a more circutious route to their objectives', and thus buying the entire left time to regroup, and to date there has still be no return to the streets in any sustained fashion.

Surely what matters most to the next generation of anti-fascists is to know exactly what happened back then. In terms of actual history 'all that really matters' to them is the unvarnished truth, warts and all. I would argue that to endorse No Retreat as 'rattling good read' is completely wrongheaded and does 'younger readers' in particular no favours. To put it another way, imagine for a moment it was the BNP that actually won the 'battle for the streets; but BTF nevertheless argued that the reverse was the case? It and everyone that identified with it would be open to ridicule and deservedly so.
It is no less important that precisely the same standards are applied to No Retreat.

There again your ego takes pride of place. Just accept that the anti fascsit fight is not about you or the people with who you associate. Dave had an opinion on how he felt things had gone with the downscaling of AFA and he was obviously influenced by the way he was treated but that is his entitlement. I dont disagree about AFA and your anaylysis on the whole but you are determined to put words nto peoples mouths by finding a scapegoat for your leaving the anti fascist scene. Personally Im glad your out of it ...I see your current politics as very suss and you will have to live with that. I have had numerous PMs from people who are concerned by your rightist anti socialism. The only people obsessed by NR are you and your colleagues. It doesnt fit with your history...unlucky for the world then isnt it that theyve had to endure the fantasies of two wannabee anti fascists who had the audacity to write about it. In addition if the belief that Dave H could deliberately go out and target gay people to mug then by that theory it is reasonable to assume that the allegations made against you could also be true ...considering it was also fellow comrades who made them......you cant have it fucking both ways.

 

[Joe Reilly]

There again your ego takes pride of place. Just accept that the anti fascsit fight is not about you or the people with who you associate.

Remind me: Are you the same Steve Tilzey who wrote a book about yourself and has been crowing about a film again starring yourself or is that some other SteveTilzey?

 

[sumud]

God almighty Gary, let it go. I know you lived on your own for far too long and when A shacked up with the "reporter" it killed you but you need to move on. If it makes you feel better, your book is great . Bold DH and ST for writing their book but considering it took you 20 years to put yours together, you can hardly blame them. Remember when you thought you were great because 'open polemic' carried a reply from you. Circulation about 100 copies I believe. London still loves you but we are still fighting the fash, not typing with anger!