malatesta32
Not Serb. No, Really!
nigel, is the ali book worth a look? does it tell us anything we dont already know?
Beating the Fascists: The authorised history of Anti-Fascist Action
- Thread starter cogg
- Start date
bignose1
Searchlight Spoiler
Yes Yes No
I thought we had put the Nolan story to bed, but yet again, you re-invent the story and cast yourself in the role of the good Samaritan.
Yes it is true that you did the early legwork when you brought the info including the man’s name and address to AFA. This was described by Dave and Gerry as your peace offering, after being kicked out of AFA and relieved of your post as intelligence officer following the misinformation provided to AFA re Rochdale BNP mobilisation.
The immediate response by yourself and AFA was to embark on a campaign of attacks on his car, his home and family, all with the intention of softening him up to bring him to the table. For AFA the goal was to shut down the branch.
When Nolan agreed to meet AFA to end the harrassment, you hijacked the meeting, leaving AFA sat in a pub, looking somewhat sheepish.
Dave Hann rang me and explained that Steve and Searchlight had pulled a fast one, and asked what they should do. I advised Dave to ring you, explain that this was not acceptable and invite you to re-arrange the meeting for the following weekend, which would coincide with a visit to Manchester by some London AFA people.. You agreed to arrange this meeting.
In the meantime I spoke to DN who knew someone who worked with Nolan. A message was passed to Nolan.
The following week I was with Dave Hann when he rang you for details of the meeting, only for you to claim that Nolan himself had pulled out at the last minute and there was nothing you could do.
Ten minutes later I rang Nolan and asked why he wasn’t prepared to meet AFA as arranged. ‘What meeting’ was his response. I asked Nolan did he want to meet AFA and resolve matters to which he replied ‘yes, where can we meet’, when I suggested the Whalley, he asked how soon. We met an hour after the phone call.
We met in the Whalley, and Dave Hann, surprisingly passed up the opportunity to conduct the interview, leaving it to myself and GM to do. By co-incidence DN was in the Whalley at the bar, and was spotted by Nolan first, who commented, Is that who I think it is? DN came over, introduced himself and went away.
Our analysis was that Nolan was not a die hard fascist but had been drawn into the BNP by circumstance and perhaps all that was needed was a word in his ear and a friendly chat to put the matter to rights.
Nolan knew people that we knew, and, a far more pragmatic strategy, and one that could possibly have led to an intelligence dividend would have been to make the approaches through these channels, unfortunatetly by the time I got involved, you had already set in play a strategy which wrecked his car three times, attacked his house, scared the shit out of his wife and kids, outed him (and his wife) in the Manchester Evening News (and to their employers) and then double crossed AFA into the bargain.
Some Samaritan you turned out to be.
bignose1
Searchlight Spoiler
Absolute bullshit Clifford...wondered when you'd emerge from under your fucking stone...couldnt be more of a lying cunt if you tried. It was you and your fucking knob head mates who attacked his house, car etc. What youve just explained is perhaps the most appalling lies you could ever have concocted and you will you fucking arsehole be shown up to be a complete liar on this. And Mike Nolan will testify that this is the case. Me and Mike met in the Throstles Nest and I explained to him that he'd made a mistake. His sons were friends of my kid his wife friends with CK and my ex missus. Me and Mike became and are close friends because I tried my best to protect him and his family. Clifford you are by this report perhaps the dirtiest lying cunt I have ever come across. CK will as she was involved be apalled at what you have portrayed, I hope you fucking go down in the history of anti fascism as fucking hated as your nazi fascist murdering cunt of a brother will do. Scum is too good a word for you.
Think you've just been found out Steve. Go and read No Retreat and see what Dave Hann says about it.
Who were you protecting him from? After Nolan met us in the Whalley it was over. The attacks had already taken place before I was called into the matter by Dave Hann. How do you explain that?
Riklet
procrastinación
So anyway it's mostly been quite inspiring and eye opening this thread, at points it's some of the best stuff i've read on urban75, in fact was re-reading some older bits recently. So for what it's worth thanks!
Since there is no ebook version available I'm gona try and and buy a print copy when back in the UK in a month.
Since there is no ebook version available I'm gona try and and buy a print copy when back in the UK in a month.
bignose1
Searchlight Spoiler
Mike Nolan knows exactly what went on and knew full well what was potentially going to happen to him when you like a twat informed your gangster mates. I tried to protect him and his family from this threat so dont get all altruistic. When Dave wrote about it in NR thats his version which I had no say in but would have at the time opposed what happened to him.I also know that youve lied when you speak of DN just being in the pub. A fucking big whopper that Clifford. The attacks were carried out by AFA under your direction, Mike knows that and thats why to this day will always remember like I would, who was responsible for putting him and his family through hell Additionally there was never going to be an intel benefit in my books...I said previously a 'potential' one. My priority when I realised he'd been set up as a patsy by Ken Henederson and Chris Jackson was to save him and family from a attack and harrasment. There were mutal connections that Ive mentioned previously. Clifford Ive said before your history and MO is to hide behind gangs and you will always distance yourself from anything directly dodgy...directing shite from afar. Probably why youve never had a nicking...your occasional punch ups being the sum total of your anti fascist worth. Go and fuck off back to your 'crew'
‘Steve phoned up the Post Office, claiming that he was a customer with a complaint against the owner of the PO box and was eventually given an address in Chorlton.’
‘We went round there , expecting to be confronted by some tooled-up nazi, but instead found a slightly dazed and confused old hippie woman.’ No Retreat by D Hann & S. Tilzey. P.246
‘The hippie woman lost no time telling us name and address of this ‘friend’, and within a week the campaign was in full swing. His car was wrecked on at least three occasions, his living room windows were smashed, and pressure was brought to bear on him at his workplace….’
‘After the story was leaked to a local newspaper, his wife also came under pressure at her place of work, and it was all looking a bit grim for the newest member of the master race. Within a month he had been approached by an anti fascist and been offered a way out of this mess he had gotten himself into.’ No Retreat by D Hann & S. Tilzey. P.247
It is when AFA was cut out of this meeting that I was contacted by Dave Hann. I was based in London, and prior to Dave’s phone call, had no involvement whatsoever. Why would I have been involved? I could not have been further away.
As Dave makes clear, all the attacks take place BEFORE Nolan is approached by you for the first meeting, which is BEFORE I was contacted by Dave.
The shameful and cowardly attacks were set up by you. It is self evident even from the abridged version of events in No Retreat.
No amount of bluff and bluster about gangsters takes responsibility for setting Nolan up, away from you. As I stated in my previous post, there were other ways that Nolan could have been approached without the sledgehammer tactics. If you had done your legwork properly, and spoke to people including DN, (with whom we have a shared history in the squad), you would not have needed to initiate the campaign of harassment in the manner that you did.
Likewise you only found out that LF and CK knew his wife after you had outed him and his wife in the Manchester Evening News. You think LF and CK haven’t worked this out?
You had the opportunity to keep AFA out of the Nolan issue and do the legwork without involving AFA. So why did you go to AFA in the first instance, if not to get them to react the way they did? Why did you then cut them out of the meeting, after the attacks had already taken place, knowing full well that this would quite possibly cause Manchester AFA to resume?
My involvement in the Nolan saga begins and ends with arranging the meeting that you reneged upon, in order to close the matter out and put an end to what had become a quite unsavoury tale of harassment and intimidation. In all less than a week. At the end of the meeting Nolan, said, ‘I wish I had met you guys before I got involved with the BNP’ Nolan was given a firm re-assurance that the matter was closed. Who were you now required to protect him from?
What this story exposes is your MO around AFA and intelligence work. Your capacity to blame others rather than take responsibility for your own actions is boundless. Calling me the mother of all liars when you and I both know the truth, is utterly bizarre but that is all you are left with by way of defence.
And as much as your indymedia persona floods into your Urban75 posts, it only serves to highlights how desparate you have become.
PS Like the bit about the nickings…..another example of your tenuous link with reality.
bignose1
Searchlight Spoiler
Again you go into a full rewriting of the real events. The truth is you spiteful cunt that I located the South Manchester Organiser (amazing as you previously said I stitched AFA up for info you know say I wholeheartedly shared intel.) In and around South Manchester there had been signs of increased racist activity..consisting mainly of graffiti and stickering. A PO box trace within days found out who was really behind the BNP branch. I never hid this from Dave...we'd been doing a bit of stuff together. But once I found out who he was and the personal ties which were LF's and CK's primarily so there was some time in between, I immediately called him and arranged a meeting on my own. I put it to him that he was in serious trouble and he realised that. I then tried to work out a strategy that would get him out of a sticky situation. However by that time others took it upon themeselves to attack him..and I had no influence on that indeed this is when you and you lot came in and informed me that I was witholding info and stated 'we'll do it our way'. DH may well have been involved in that but I never once got involved in that you sick fucker. The Evening News article was before the relationships came to light. Everyone knows the truth Clifford..especially Mike Nolan who will testify to my help... our subsequent friendship exists because he knows full well the support I gave him and his family...he's knows about your role and quite honestly if you hadnt had DN and co he would have seen you off pronto. Your lies know no end..Regards indymedia posts well lets go back to Red Action forum circa 2003 need I say any more. Oh and please answer this one which you evade constantly...oh talking about harrassment and intimidation...why then did you have to say 'should see th crew weve got now' unless to confirnm the way you have and will alwys operate...hiding behind gangs..manipulating situations then setting up people. You have now exposed to previously sceptical parties what a twat you are. And for any one else who wants to wade into this...Clifford is a liar and will go to no ends to fulfill his and his cohorts agenda.
So Steve, the Evening News article was before the relationships came to light.
bignose1
Searchlight Spoiler
It was with the weekly Metro with John Jeffay....and what Ill do Sherlock is PM you MN's number.... and he'll tell you exactly what the timeline was. If you think and believe for one minute that I was behind any attack on his home and car then it'll confirm everything about what you said about Dave H and every other unfortunate cunt youv'e threatened or tried to misrepresent. And you fucking know it. Infact that Porky cunt tried to take me to task...the fucking cheek when he was tasked by AFA about it.That was not long after Id given his homeless fat arse a place to live.In addition, one of MN's neighbours part of the trendy Chorlton Beech Road clique of lefty social worker types was causing Mike's wife problems with her job at a local school. It was me who went round to see her to make her back off. Although I was behind the exposing of the South Manchestre BNP organiser I was soley responsible for his rehabilitation in the community. What you are saying is in many ways fine as it gives me the confirmation that deep down you are a deeply flawed and vindicative bastard.
Joe Reilly
Well-Known Member
Happily, it does seem to be a view that is fairly widely shared. And here was me confusing you with the cease-fire soldier who travelled to a public meeting in Lenadoon last year purely to denounce BTF as a "hoax" written by "armchair generals".
So you were trying to turn Nolan into a long term intelligence asset? For who, bearing in mind the timeline and your retirement date?
And the other guy who was getting attacked I think his name was Red(?) what were you intending to do with him, just how far did your powers of redemption stretch?
I think you are forgetting too that Nolan had "raised the ante" by leading an attack on an Irish Republican event in the city only weeks before the attacks on him began. He met a coachload from Glasgow at the happy eater and along with BNP and city lads attacked the event in Longsight. Poor lost little lamb....
Just out of curiosity could you clarify if you indeed did break links with searchlight and your superior in manchester ML in 1994 why have you continued accepting information from people(Labour party people, trade union people, cp people etc) and what have you been doing with it?
And the other guy who was getting attacked I think his name was Red(?) what were you intending to do with him, just how far did your powers of redemption stretch?
I think you are forgetting too that Nolan had "raised the ante" by leading an attack on an Irish Republican event in the city only weeks before the attacks on him began. He met a coachload from Glasgow at the happy eater and along with BNP and city lads attacked the event in Longsight. Poor lost little lamb....
Just out of curiosity could you clarify if you indeed did break links with searchlight and your superior in manchester ML in 1994 why have you continued accepting information from people(Labour party people, trade union people, cp people etc) and what have you been doing with it?
butchersapron
Bring back hanging
In public? Come on.
(not directed at jackie solely but recent participants all)
(not directed at jackie solely but recent participants all)
malatesta32
Not Serb. No, Really!
too right. please take it to PM.
miktheword
Well-Known Member
the events being discussed here surrounding Nolan, DH's interview, are a bone of contention by Big Nose regarding what is written in BtF, about himself and the above.
I can't see why they should be taken to pm (security not an issue anymore, names have already been mentioned) and the questions, answers, or lack of, are much more relevant to the thread title than the page of fishing, a few days back.
butchersapron
Bring back hanging
Names maybe shouldn't have been mentioned. That they have doesn't mean it should go on. The political stuff sure, but let's keep to it. Because that's not the last few posts.
no need to deal in PMs about what is already in the public domain via NR and BTF etc. What are the names you are worried about anyway, the fascists? I expect nig nose will now offer to draw the matter to a close, not answer any questions posed to him and kiss and make up- he usually does..
butchersapron
Bring back hanging
Names, places, incidents, new Info to connect them. Its all here and its all ammunition.
malatesta32
Not Serb. No, Really!
mik, as a couple of folks have said here, its embarassing. they aint gonna agree on the issues so why fill this thread with their personal differences when the thread is about a wider subject. and a worthy one at that!
miktheword
Well-Known Member
Of course they're not going to agree and send Christmas cards, and while it may be embarrassing for some to read, the wider and worthy subject that you mention, is why I think it is important.
When the authenticity of one account of militant anti fascist history is challenged to be a lie on the points being debated, by one of the authors of the other account, its only by asking who, when, what, where, why etc, that we can get to the truth of the matter.
And the reasons for getting to the truth are of great importance.
If DH's defence was constructed for him, if he was working to a different agenda to what he said in the book, just before the trial, and BECAUSE of the trial, and hence after with the book, then has to lead those interested in these matters to hold BtF as a true account of militant anti fascist history.
Its explained better in JR's recent posts on the subject..
I suppose what it comes down to is whether you regard No Retreat, penned by Dave Hann and Steve Tilzey as a more or less truthful political record of not insignificant political events, or a novel? It was suggested on here by former colleagues that the opening scene in the book, with regard to Tilzey getting on an NF coach instead of a Man Utd one by mistake, did not happen, or at least did not happen to Tilzey.
Which inevitably leads to all sorts of questions about the honesty of the authors and their political motivation for writing the book in the first place.
Historically there have been two types of anti-fascism. One seeks to protect the centre from the far-right, the other to displace the far-right the better to carry the fight against the political centre. One is represented by the Searchlight brand while AFA represents the latter. No Retreat manages to conflate the two and concludes (and tellingly in the author's promotion of the book) accuses radical anti-fascism of betraying the entire movement out of a mixture of narrow political gain and physical cowardice.
As I said, it just depends on whether this is ultimately resolved, and whether you consider it to be politically important or not?
and here
From this twisted perpestive the 'end of AFA' came naturally with Hann's 'disgraceful' expulsion on trumped up charges by senior members/'arm-chair generals' who had lost the stomach for the fight (over-night apparently). This loss of nerve led not only to the near immediate collapse of AFA and 'betrayal of the anti-fascist movement' but led directly to the subsequent triumph of the BNP electorally, you are invited to conclude. Ultimately, it was AFA, not the BNP which capitulated.
so for me, this is about a true historical account of AFA's history, not the personalities; the abuse can be ignored; the issue of far greater importance is anti-fascism and did it succeed with those tactics, forcing the BNP to capitulate, change tactics etc. Surely this matters, not anyone's embarrassment.
Mick
bignose1
Searchlight Spoiler
Your right butchers.... I explain in public anything to this little runt?...who the fuck do they think they are. This is the problem.....they get their lackies to pester away with their arrogant...how dare you take any credit for anything attitude. There is very little use in arguing/defending anything Ive done. Youve got your cronies to fill these pages with lies and distortions...I honestly cant help but laugh at you now. And I apologise to people on here who have to endure it. Not my best moment too but I cant help their obsessive behaviour.
chilango
Hypothetical Wanker
Absolutely.
The endless re-hashing of those events in Manchester and elsewhere 20 years ago do not contribute to this.
Sure, it mattered then. Both in terms of the matter of personal trust and in terms of the role of Searchlight.
But the constant re-arguing of essentially personal details no longer does.
Things have moved on.
People who were around at the time will, if they care, already have formulated judgements on these matters a long time ago. I know my views are not being changed by the "discussions" above.
People who weren't around at the time really don't need to hear all of this.
Essentially, all that needs to be taken and reviewed today are the following:
1/ The success, and limitations, of physical force anti-fascism (AFA)
2/ The need, or otherwise, of filling the political vacuum (the IWCA strategy)
3/ Whether state connected anti-fascism can be trusted or effective (Searchlight/HNH etc.)
These can, and should, be discussed, without all the shit being slung around above.
The39thStep
Urban critical thinker
The trouble with some parts of this thread is that it gets so insular and personal with allegation followed by abuse followed by allegation about particular incidents and personal histories.
Its sometimes difficult for those not at the neart of this to comprehend the ferocious vitriol that this evidenced itself in both on the RA site re the publication of No Retreat and on Indymedia etc when Beating the Fascists was published.
However within this ferocious vitriol I don't think we can walk away from this conclusion which I think distils the political differences of how both books end.
Lets also not forget that amidst the attempts to stop the publication of BtF a third book appeared on the scene heavily marketed with appearances on the BBC ,the Guardian et al and a speaking tour written by Mathew Collins.An enjoyable and at some points a hilarious read but what conclusion does that book draw politically?
Its sometimes difficult for those not at the neart of this to comprehend the ferocious vitriol that this evidenced itself in both on the RA site re the publication of No Retreat and on Indymedia etc when Beating the Fascists was published.
However within this ferocious vitriol I don't think we can walk away from this conclusion which I think distils the political differences of how both books end.
Lets also not forget that amidst the attempts to stop the publication of BtF a third book appeared on the scene heavily marketed with appearances on the BBC ,the Guardian et al and a speaking tour written by Mathew Collins.An enjoyable and at some points a hilarious read but what conclusion does that book draw politically?
Mrs Magpie
On a bit of break...
Can someone tell me what's going on here? Butchers? You're a face I know and have a rep for reliability. There are real names on this thread but really I don't know which ones are OK to leave and which to edit out.
I have come in response to reported posts and frankly reading this thread is doing my head in and I'm still non the bloody wiser apart from the fact that there seems to be a lot of heartfelt hatred about historical spats and splits.
I have come in response to reported posts and frankly reading this thread is doing my head in and I'm still non the bloody wiser apart from the fact that there seems to be a lot of heartfelt hatred about historical spats and splits.
malatesta32
Not Serb. No, Really!
mik! by way of a reposne - what chilango said up there!
Similar threads
