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Beating the Fascists: The authorised history of Anti-Fascist Action

Where did I make that claim?

that's pretty much the description you've used to (sneeringly) refer to AFA's activities in your last few posts - one which appears to me to seek to empty out the political content of those activities (exactly the same approach as you used re the running club comment)

also re your comment about it being nearly twenty years ago - what did you expect from what was predominantly a history book - a history of the future?

amusing to see trots make a claim that something is irrelevant or not worth bothering about because it happened in the past
 
Sneering? Your the one who dismissed the myriad work going on in Oxford as a 'running club' you fucking helmet. You are the one who has wriitten off a track record that pound for pound demonstrates a resonance that the rest of the left can only dream of. And you are the one who has dismissed the work of anti-fascists that fought the far right to a standstill as 'street fighting' ignoring the personal sacrifices made. You are a clown.

As charming as ever. Did I hurt your feelings by not demonstrating the requisite respect, a respect which, mind you, IWCA supporters absolutely never grant anyone else on the left? The hypocrisy is absolutely staggering. You are entirely dismissive about every other left group, but you immediately throw your bottle out of the pram if your own organisations are treated with anything other than reverence.

And I note that we're back to empty boasting about your record again, although at least now you've dropped the silly claims down to a "pound for pound" "resonance". You know what, when you consider that your weight class consists of Workers Power, I might even partially go along with that. Not that it gets us very far.

Why has every IWCA branch other than the one in Oxford apparently disappeared? Why has the IWCA failed to spread elsewhere? Why has it, with one partial exception in Blackbird Leys, failed to sustain itself? What conclusions have you drawn from this? What do you plan to do about it?

These aren't nasty, cynical, unreasonable questions aimed at undermining the IWCA. These are the kind of bleeding fucking obvious questions anyone who is serious about your politics and your methods should be asking. But not only are you not capable of answering them, you regard even asking as an unpardonable affront. And you consistently prefer to talk about how irrelevant and failed and useless everyone else is, with all the arrogance of a group which had gone from success to success rather than slowly falling apart yourselves. If the rest of the left are so fucking irrelevant, then stop fucking pissing and moaning about them and talk about your own organisation - and in particular talk about its success and failures and how you realistically plan to build on those successes and address those failures.
 
This is urban, Are you new here or just been sleeping?

Compared to other sites on the web I don't think it's generally that much of a problem on here, it certainly doesn't normally prevent reasonable discussion. But I've been trying to get answers to a couple of questions about the IWCA for a while now, and even when IWCA posters were engaging and trying to provide those answers it got derailed by precisely this kind of shite before we really got anywhere. It's very frustrating, particularly as I'm involved in an initiative that, although not the same as the IWCA, has enough similarities for answers to those questions to be potentially very useful.

Maybe if I called the IWCA or AFA cunts I'd get a better response?
 
Compared to other sites on the web I don't think it's generally that much of a problem on here, it certainly doesn't normally prevent reasonable discussion. But I've been trying to get answers to a couple of questions about the IWCA for a while now, and even when IWCA posters were engaging and trying to provide those answers it got derailed by precisely this kind of shite before we really got anywhere. It's very frustrating, particularly as I'm involved in an initiative that, although not the same as the IWCA, has enough similarities for answers to those questions to be potentially very useful.

Maybe if I called the IWCA or AFA cunts I'd get a better response?
Start a thread, but don't be surprised if it gets derailed.
 
I'm loath to stick up for Nigel Irritable, who is sometimes a very abusive lad, but I think he does have a point here about IWCAers' unwillingness to discuss the successes and failures of their project.

It's not difficult to understand why, I suppose. If you have really thought very carefully about your political analysis and project and have invested great hope in it and have really worked very hard on it for a long period of time, it is then bloody difficult to be objective about those ideas and that project.

This is true of Trottery, a perennially failing political project, and seems to be true of the IWCA too.
 
that's pretty much the description you've used to (sneeringly) refer to AFA's activities in your last few posts - one which appears to me to seek to empty out the political content of those activities (exactly the same approach as you used re the running club comment)

I'm not "emptying out the political content" of AFA's campaign. It was obviously political. It was also obviously useful, not least to the ethnic minorities and leftists who might otherwise have been attacked by an unmolested far right. But I don't think that in the greater political scheme of things, AFA's early 90s war against the BNP or NF was all that important, and more importantly it doesn't tell us very much of direct use today because the major forces of the far right are very different and things like CCTV render much of AFA's approach counterproductive today. It's even less relevant to someone in the South of Ireland, where we have about four fascists anyway. I am much more interested in the IWCA, which is actually supposed to be an attempt to address today's changed political conditions and to address them on more than a single issue.

The problem is that none of the IWCA's fans and supporters seem all that interested in it, except in so far as it provides a handy vantage point for pissing and moaning about the rest of the left.
 
Start a thread, but don't be surprised if it gets derailed.

I think I will but I'll leave it till tomorrow, given the obvious danger of an epic sectarian derail I think I need to be careful how I phrase it and I have neither the time nor the patience to do it right now.
 
I think I will but I'll leave it till tomorrow, given the obvious danger of an epic sectarian derail I think I need to be careful how I phrase it and I have neither the time nor the patience to do it right now.
I doubt that it will be in any more danger of derail than any other thread on here.
 
I'm not "emptying out the political content" of AFA's campaign. It was obviously political.

so why characterise it as 'street fights'?

is the commonly accepted understanding of street fights one which has 'obvious' political content?

(start a thread about the IWCA and ask your questions on it - this is a thread about a book about the history of anti fascist action - apologies also for the fact that history is in the past and therefore not relevant to a trot...)
 
In the same way that trotskyite politics could accurately and fairly be described as 'selling papers' as that is a prominent element and visible part of the strategy?

Admit it, you used the term 'street fights' to belittle and de-politicise the history
 
I'm loath to stick up for Nigel Irritable, who is sometimes a very abusive lad, but I think he does have a point here about IWCAers' unwillingness to discuss the successes and failures of their project.

It's not difficult to understand why, I suppose. If you have really thought very carefully about your political analysis and project and have invested great hope in it and have really worked very hard on it for a long period of time, it is then bloody difficult to be objective about those ideas and that project.

This is true of Trottery, a perennially failing political project, and seems to be true of the IWCA too.

By their friends shall ye know them.
 
I don't whine and yap about it, and get my feelings all hurt, when someone starts talking about "selling papers".

I didn't ask whether you, personally, manage not to whine and yap about it if your politics were summarised in such a way

I asked whether such a summary was objectively a fair & accurate description of them
 
I'm not "emptying out the political content" of AFA's campaign. It was obviously political. It was also obviously useful, not least to the ethnic minorities and leftists who might otherwise have been attacked by an unmolested far right. But I don't think that in the greater political scheme of things, AFA's early 90s war against the BNP or NF was all that important, and more importantly it doesn't tell us very much of direct use today because the major forces of the far right are very different and things like CCTV render much of AFA's approach counterproductive today. It's even less relevant to someone in the South of Ireland, where we have about four fascists anyway. I am much more interested in the IWCA, which is actually supposed to be an attempt to address today's changed political conditions and to address them on more than a single issue.

The problem is that none of the IWCA's fans and supporters seem all that interested in it, except in so far as it provides a handy vantage point for pissing and moaning about the rest of the left.

To begin with this might be judged the 'damned with faint praise' type of post of a typical dilletante.

However, there are I think within it, some remarkably egregious (and as importantly representative) morsels to savour.

In no particular order.

1. The AFA campaign was not that important anyway.

2. The forces of the far-right are very different today.

3. Anti-fascism across Europe is not personally relevant because he cannot see fascists from his front door.

4. Nothing can be learnt from the AFA campaign because of the advent of CCTV.

5. Anti-fascism is a single issue.

6. The IWCA cannot comment on the state of the left

1. At the height of the campaign against the BNP it took 7,000 votes in the general election. In the last Euro elections it took the best part of a million votes off - and this is generally ignored - a 30per cent turnout. Which demonstrates an electoral base of roughly 2.5 million. Somewhere in between the two figures is the AFA dividend.

2. It is of course the strategy of the far-right that is very different today. The fascists are still the same fascists.

3. See... Pastor Niemoller

4. It is the fascists not AFA that abandoned the battle for control of the streets -and no one on the far-right has picked up that particular baton. Moreover AFA confronted on the streets because that is where they were then. There are now on the estates instead and the fight is 100 per cent political. The notion that CCTV negates any of that is risible.

5. To repeat: 'the rise of the far right across Europe is not the cause for the failure of the Left it is a consequence of that failure'.

This is of course either ignored or denied. Yet in a public post mortem meeting following the last Euro elections organisers from the SP repeatedly boasted of getting '10 per cent of the BNP vote'.

So much then for 'the single issue'.

As regards the IWCA all you get is the usual ad hominem arguments. In the sense that because the IWCA project isn't bigger than the entire Left then there is some kind of moral hazard in allowing sympathisers to offer any sort of critique.
 
What do you percieve the differences to be?

We're part of, and being supported by, a trade union and so on the negative side we don't have the same degree of autonomy but on the positive side we do have better links with other similar branches across the country and, until we start making too much trouble for them, we'll have more financial and practical support.
 
We're part of, and being supported by, a trade union and so on the negative side we don't have the same degree of autonomy but on the positive side we do have better links with other similar branches across the country and, until we start making too much trouble for them, we'll have more financial and practical support.

Who's we sorry? TUSC? I can't find your post saying it.
 
Who's we sorry? TUSC? I can't find your post saying it.

No, I'm involved in setting up a branch in the community section of Unite. I don't have any illusions in Unite as an organisation, but we can use their support to forge links and build groups - so if they do decide we're becoming an embarassment or whatever it may be necessary to sever links with the union. They don't seem to appreciate what they've unleashed yet so they're leaving it to us and just giving us whatever support we ask for. I don't expect that to last forever though.
 
No, I'm involved in setting up a branch in the community section of Unite. I don't have any illusions in Unite as an organisation, but we can use their support to forge links and build groups - so if they do decide we're becoming an embarassment or whatever it may be necessary to sever links with the union. They don't seem to appreciate what they've unleashed yet so they're leaving it to us and just giving us whatever support we ask for. I don't expect that to last forever though.

What is the formal purpose of the community section of Unite?
 
What is the formal purpose of the community section of Unite?

In all honesty I've been trying to fathom that myself. According to them it's about empowering people without access to workplace unions in their communities and demonstrating the power of collective action. The intention is to, if possible, eventually have a branch in every estate in the city, and I assume every other city/town too, but we're nowhere near that stage yet. But we're basically being left to do what we want with it and the more active people among us are wanting to take it in a broadly IWCA-like direction (without the part about standing people in council elections obviously). As I said, I suspect that at some point the leadership will realise what they've unleashed and try and reign us in. I'm hoping that by that time we'll have demonstrated to other members the utility of our approach and if we are forced to leave others will leave with us to form an independent organisation.
 
In all honesty I've been trying to fathom that myself. According to them it's about empowering people without access to workplace unions in their communities and demonstrating the power of collective action. The intention is to, if possible, eventually have a branch in every estate in the city, and I assume every other city/town too, but we're nowhere near that stage yet. But we're basically being left to do what we want with it and the more active people among us are wanting to take it in a broadly IWCA-like direction (without the part about standing people in council elections obviously). As I said, I suspect that at some point the leadership will realise what they've unleashed and try and reign us in. I'm hoping that by that time we'll have demonstrated to other members the utility of our approach and if we are forced to leave others will leave with us to form an independent organisation.

I suspect they will have little problem with any work you put in - indeed the harder you work, the more they'll like it - as they will look forward to shamelessly claiming credit for it.
 
I suspect they will have little problem with any work you put in - indeed the harder you work, the more they'll like it - as they will look forward to shamelessly claiming credit for it.

I don't really care who takes credit for it so long as we get it done.
 
I don't really care who takes credit for it so long as we get it done.

That, if I may so, is extremely naive. What in effect you'll be doing is buttressing the people responsible for the mess in the first place. Re-inforcing the status quo. Providing handly little photo ops for both time-servers and careerists. If that's what gets you up in the morning, so to speak, that's your business. And though it hardly needs stating, it is the very opposite to the IWCA strategy.
 
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