Beating the Fascists: The authorised history of Anti-Fascist Action

[Red Storm]

I was involved in that debate. No real answers were forthcoming apart from those I detailed above. If you remember differently please refresh my memory.

Why not join? You could always email them via their national website. They won't bother replying but that's not the point.

I'm afraid to say that those same questions have been asked over and over again and I've yet to see a single answer. It looked like Joe might have been getting close to one on the EDL thread but that exchange ended prematurely amid a serious derail. Members of other groups are constantly required to justify their positions and account for perceived failings, why the double standards? And if they don't have answers then maybe there's a flaw in the model itself. I suspect we'll never know unfortunately.

Maybe Joe had other things to do. I don't know. Like I said I would like answers too. I only want them to satisfy my political curiosity, it's not like with the answers anyone is going to do anything with them.

I think my political views are not closely synchronised enough with the IWCA's to join. My mate did tell me that he once called to find out more information only to get a prickly response from the answerer, now I know where the IWCA came from I can imagine it haha.

Anyway I'm about to upload a couple of documents to the Anti-Fascist Archive which will be of interest you and others regarding this issue.

 

[frogwoman]

woe betide you if you're one of the dreaded lumpen!

 

[SpineyNorman]

Maybe this "prickly" attitude could go some way towards explaining its failure to grow. And why wouldn't anyone do anything with the answers? There's plenty of us involved in grassroots level campaigning, I'm involved in setting up a community union right now. Answers to those questions could have some practical application so it's a shame none are forthcoming really.

 

[SpineyNorman]

woe betide you if you're one of the dreaded lumpen!

That's me fucked then. Do you think they have lumpen detectors on their email? You know, like a spam filter? That would explain a lot.

 

[SpineyNorman]

I think my political views are not closely synchronised enough with the IWCA's to join.

I thought one of the refreshing things about the IWCA was the fact you didn't need to be ideologically "pure" to join.

Anyway I'm about to upload a couple of documents to the Anti-Fascist Archive which will be of interest you and others regarding this issue.

Cheers. I'll take a look.

 

[laptop]

woe betide you if you're one of the dreaded lumpen!

www.ilpa.org.uk is already taken - so the Independent Lumpen-Proletariat Association is out as the name for the Salon des refusés.

Oopss... bit of a giveway there...

 

[Red Storm]

I thought one of the refreshing things about the IWCA was the fact you didn't need to be ideologically "pure" to join.

But I think you should be

 

[SpineyNorman]

www.ilpa.org.uk is already taken - so the Independent Lumpen-Proletariat Association is out as the name for the Salon des refusés.

Oopss... bit of a giveway there...

What about Independent Chav Scum Association (ICSA)?

 

[Red Storm]

http://antifascistarchive.com/literature/cutting-edge-1/

^^^ plus the next picture.

The writing isn't very visable however I don't know what I can do about that.

http://antifascistarchive.com/2012/02/13/anti-fascist-action-publications/

The bottom link.

 

[SpineyNorman]

But I think you should be

'kinell, you're even more Leninist than the CWI!

 

[laptop]

What about Independent Chav Scum Association (ICSA)?

Institute of Chartered Secretaries and Administrators

 

[frogwoman]

But I think you should be

nah, I think it would be a bit creepy if every member of a group agreed on absolutely everything. maybe that's just me though.

 

[Pickman's model]

What about Independent Chav Scum Association (ICSA)?

international cultic studies association http://www.icsahome.com/

 

[past caring]

I've got to admit that there is sometimes a knee-jerk defence thing going on when anyone criticises the IWCA, like on the EDL thread I was asking why it failed to take off and even though I made it clear that I thought there was a lot we can learn from the IWCA, the response I got was along the lines of "how can you say it failed when the left achieved even less etc." It makes it difficult to discuss it critically.

This is really just a charicature of the discussion, isn't it. I thought the actual discussion was a reasonable one - or is it the case that you have to appear to be on side now the big boys (nigel) have come to play?

 

[SpineyNorman]

international cultic studies association http://www.icsahome.com/

Fuck's sake

 

[SpineyNorman]

This is really just a charicature of the discussion, isn't it. I thought the actual discussion was a reasonable one - or is it the case that you have to appear to be on side now the big boys (nigel) have come to play?

Not at all, it was a decent discussion once we'd got over the initial knee-jerk reaction and as I said Joe was starting to provide some decent answers, but the thread got derailed and it ended there. I'd take it as a compliment if people wanted to know more about something I'd been involved in creating. I just don't understand why people appear to be so reluctant to talk about it.

 

[Red Storm]

'kinell, you're even more Leninist than the CWI!

I'm only bloody joking.

Plus what is it with the word 'Leninist' and U75...

 

[Red Storm]

http://antifascistarchive.com/2012/02/01/a-collection-of-beatings-and-images/ub40-anl-1/

Older AFA members please click the above link. Its a picture from 1981 (IIRC) and features someone you may know. Might provide a chuckle.

 

[SpineyNorman]

This is where we got to on the other thread before it got derailed. If anyone (Joe Reilly/Past Caring?) wants to continue it I'd be grateful as I do think there are practical lessons to be learned from this.

There are two separate questions here: why did the IWCA not attract more activists nationally, an organisational question, which past caring has touched on, and 'why did the IWCA approach not take off among the working class' which seems to me to be different.

All importantly I think for a prototype, is the fact that where implemented, the iWCA strategy was supported by thousands of working class people. Some went further and became activists candidates and indeed Cllrs themselves. The flaw in the plan, lay in the ability to spread the message and at the same time fend off the increasingly hysterical attacks, not just from the Left but increasingly from the mainstream parties, working in tandem.

Only if the problem had been reversed (an organisation the size of the SA/SLP/Respect but scant appeal beyond that, and a strategy with working class appeal but no real organisation) would 'failure' be an appropriate verdict.

Don't get me wrong, I agree that in comparison with pretty much any left wing initiative since the miners' strike (and possibly before) the IWCA was a massive success. Maybe failure is the wrong word, I don't know, but why didn't it spread? Do you think there's anything that could be done differently in future? Or do you think the obstacles the IWCA faced are insurmountable (they may be for all I know)?

I'm not trying to make out it was a failure, in fact it's the relative success of the IWCA that makes this such an important question IMO. I think that approach probably is the way forward (if there is one at all) but the chances are that whenever and wherever it is tried it's likely to come up against the same problems as it did the first time around. If that's not addressed the limited success of the initial IWCA project is all we can hope for (and possibly even less, as Labour &co. will be expecting it next time).

Or should I start a new thread? If so it'll have to wait till tomorrow cos I need to get back to the work I've been avoiding doing all day.

 

[Red Storm]

This is where we got to on the other thread before it got derailed. If anyone (Joe Reilly/Past Caring?) wants to continue it I'd be grateful as I do think there are practical lessons to be learned from this.

Or should I start a new thread? If so it'll have to wait till tomorrow cos I need to get back to the work I've been avoiding doing all day.

New thread would be good but sometimes they don't take off. I think if it were possible to snip out the bits from the edl thread to form a new thread it would have been good.

 

[Red Storm]

http://antifascistarchive.com/fascist-stickers/

^^new fash stickers

 

[Red Storm]

A scrapbook sent to me, by a kind U75 member, with hundreds of anti-fascist clippings is finally ready to upload. Its 167 page pdf and the quality isn't 100%. Printing the bastard off would probably be the best option for those really interested.

Here it is: http://antifascistarchive.com/2012/03/19/the-scrapbook/

 

[The39thStep]

have the IWCA done this then? and is the CWI being in 40 countries a bad thing?

because i never see you lot.

anywhere.

not being funny but "paper sellers" and "leninists" get slagged off on here all the time and a lot of the time it's accurate but a lot of the time it isn't. i agree that there is a need to do more community work (doing things that actually make a difference in a local area) and have the SP and other trots done enough? almost certainly not. but it is happening. i've seen it. i've seen the difference that kind of patient steady work can do in an area about issues that people actually care about and it's a big mistake to think that the IWCA are the only ones doing it.

and there have been things the SP have done in the past that i've disagreed with and probably will be those things again and i'll say so. perfectly prepared to say so. at the end of the day tho i have seen what we've done in my local area and the type of stuff we've been able to get people involved in. believe it or not i actually agree with a lot of the criticisms made on here of the left, including at times the sp, however if you dish it out you should be prepared to take some of it as well

Great pity that you take a similar tack that your embarrassing comrade does which is to avoid the subject being debated ie why the SP took a decision not to review the book. Your boss thinks it is because RA were sneering, others think it challenges he SPs version of their role

You have followed the discussions on here about the history of anti fascsism. Does it bear any resemblance to the version on the SP site ?

 

[frogwoman]

I've got no idea why they haven't reviewed the book yet. Tell you what when I'm done with it I'll write a review of it myself. Might take some time though for me to finish as I do have a job, etc.

and "my boss"? sorry, it may come as a surprise to you but i'm perfectly capable of thinking for myself ta, nigel irritable isn't "my boss" ffs. never even met the guy.

 

[Nigel Irritable]

Great pity that you take a similar tack that your embarrassing comrade does which is to avoid the subject being debated ie why the SP took a decision not to review the book. Your boss thinks it is because RA were sneering, others think it challenges he SPs version of their role

"Your boss"?

You are misrepresenting my view of why no left organisation other than the CPGB (which specialises in reporting on the doings of other groups) has reviewed the Red Action / AFA book. They haven't done so because none of them give a flying fuck what a bunch of retired members of a long deceased little left group have to say for themselves. They'd be about as likely to review a book by Workers Power.

I realise that this book is vitally important to a small number of AFA old boys and another handful of internet hangers on, but to other left groups it's just another publication churned out by an irrelevant and now off the scene rival. I understand that point of view, but think it's a pity, because underneath the bluster and arrogance and sneering, the book contains some political points, however unevenly developed, which are potentially worth engaging with.

 

[Deareg]

"Your boss"?

You are misrepresenting my view of why no left organisation other than the CPGB (which specialises in reporting on the doings of other groups) has reviewed the Red Action / AFA book. They haven't done so because none of them give a flying fuck what a bunch of retired members of a long deceased little left group have to say for themselves. They'd be about as likely to review a book by Workers Power.

I realise that this book is vitally important to a small number of AFA old boys and another handful of internet hangers on, but to other left groups it's just another publication churned out by an irrelevant and now off the scene rival. I understand that point of view, but think it's a pity, because underneath the bluster and arrogance and sneering, the book contains some political points, however unevenly developed, which are potentially worth engaging with.

Why do you keep banging on about Red Action's sneering when you sound as if you want to throw up every time the name comes into your head?

 

[Nigel Irritable]

Why do you keep banging on about Red Action's sneering when you sound as if you want to throw up every time the name comes into your head?

Because I keep hoping that sooner or later some of their former members and cheerleaders on here will develop a bit of self-awareness, and realise that constantly putting the boot into everyone else on the allegedly "irrelevant', "failed", etc left while behaving like sulky children if anyone is remotely critical of their own group isn't a very rational way to behave.

For the record, and despite the best efforts of some on here, I have quite a bit of respect for Red Action and the IWCA - in particular their refusal to retreat from class politics and their willingness to do some thinking at times rather than simply continuing with the same political routine. I don't agree with quite a lot of what they've had to say for themselves, but they are more intrinsically interesting than the likes of Workers Power or most other groups of that ilk.

 

[Deareg]

Because I keep hoping that sooner or later some of their former members and cheerleaders on here will develop a bit of self-awareness, and realise that constantly putting the boot into everyone else on the allegedly "irrelevant', "failed", etc left while behaving like sulky children if anyone is remotely critical of their own group isn't a very rational way to behave.

For the record, and despite the best efforts of some on here, I have quite a bit of respect for Red Action and the IWCA - in particular their refusal to retreat from class politics and their willingness to do some thinking at times rather than simply continuing with the same political routine. I don't agree with quite a lot of what they've had to say for themselves, but they are more intrinsically interesting than the likes of Workers Power or most other groups of that ilk.

Just because people do not agree with you does not mean that they lack self awarness.

The left is irrelevant.

And in being largely responsible for stemming what was a rising fascist tide back in the 80's and early 90's they achieved more than the left have ever achieved in Britain.

Maybe you have spent too long mixing with middle class lefties that the inarticulate working class seem to be sulky children.

 

[Nigel Irritable]

Just because people do not agree with you does not mean that they lack self awarness.

Of course not. However, people who love to dish it out but can't take any criticism without sulking do tend to lack self awareness.

The left is irrelevant.

As opposed to the IWCA, which is just a four minute mile from victory?

You see, this is the part that makes you lot seem so ridiculous. RA/AFA/IWCA were going to show how irrelevant and outdated the rest of the left was, get busy in working class communities and demonstrate in practice the superiority of their ideas. And 17 years later, despite having amassed not one ounce of evidence for the superiority of their ideas and methods and indeed having gradually gathered a fair bit of evidence that their approach carries some fairly drastic problems of its own, their cheerleaders are just as arrogant as ever! There's not the slightest hint of reappraisal, nor the slightest toning down of the dismissal of everyone else. There's just an awkward silence whenever anyone asks about the IWCA's own progress and then it's back to putting the boot in.

And in being largely responsible for stemming what was a rising fascist tide back in the 80's and early 90's they achieved more than the left have ever achieved in Britain.

Christ almighty, these are actual delusions of grandeur.

Maybe you have spent too long mixing with middle class lefties that the inarticulate working class seem to be sulky children.

Yes, that's it. Internet cheerleaders for the IWCA are "the inarticulate working class", as opposed to being a bunch of retired old lefty activists themselves. Get a fucking grip.

 

[Deareg]

Of course not. However, people who love to dish it out but can't take any criticism without sulking do tend to lack self awareness.



As opposed to the IWCA, which is just a four minute mile from victory?



Christ almighty, these are actual delusions of grandeur.



Yes, that's it. Internet cheerleaders for the IWCA are "the inarticulate working class", as opposed to being a bunch of retired old lefty activists themselves. Get a fucking grip.

Your not sneering, are you?