Beating the Fascists: The authorised history of Anti-Fascist Action

[frogwoman]

That, if I may so, is extremely naive. What in effect you'll be doing is buttressing the people responsible for the mess in the first place. Re-inforcing the status quo. Providing handly little photo ops for both time-servers and careerists. If that's what gets you up in the morning, so to speak, that's your business. And though it hardly needs stating, it is the very opposite to the IWCA strategy.

But on the IWCA's website it says:

http://www.iwca.info/?page_id=1410

• The drawing together of all sectors, including official agencies, toward the goal of the working class ownership of local communities

What's to stop those "offical agencies" taking credit for your work any more than unite (or whatever) officials would?

 

[Fozzie Bear]

The "independent" in IWCA (and indeed "Hackney Independent") is key.

My recollection is that mainstream political parties did try and take credit for IWCA work in Oxford. Which the IWCA were able to rebuff in their usual robust manner, precisely because they were independent.

 

[SpineyNorman]

That, if I may so, is extremely naive. What in effect you'll be doing is buttressing the people responsible for the mess in the first place. Re-inforcing the status quo. Providing handly little photo ops for both time-servers and careerists. If that's what gets you up in the morning, so to speak, that's your business. And though it hardly needs stating, it is the very opposite to the IWCA strategy.

That argument could equally be used against joining a workplace union though couldn't it? And I did say there were differences - but the similarities lie in the type of work we'll be doing. And since our work will put us in direct conflict with the labour council I'm not sure unite will always be so quick to claim it as their own.

 

[articul8]

expand.

that too?

how do you deduce an AFA dividend from the subsequent growth in BNP electoral support?

 

[Joe Reilly]

that too?

how do you deduce an AFA dividend from the subsequent growth in BNP electoral support?

It is true that the 'subsequent growth' came after they were forced to abandon the streets. The dividend was in the fact that they were unable to electorally capitalise earlier. For example after losing to AFA in a town centre confrontation in Burnley the BNP took a total of 9 votes in a subsequent by-election.

Those of a liberal bent would have assumed that the laugable return, was proof that Burnley was a haven of tolerance. Yet in 2002 the BNP took 10,000 votes there.

Obviously the BNP support did not rise a thousand fold in the interim. So to a large extent what is referred to in BTF as the 'reservoir of reaction' was give or take an ever present. What AFA determind to do was to prevent the far-right tapping into it.

It was only as a result of their abandonment of their strategy that they were able to lift the AFA boot of their neck and flourish.

Around the same time AFA was applying it's strategy in this country, the French by conrast were relying on the likes of SOS Racisme in theirs.


As a consequence the French Far-right were allowed a free run for over 30 years.

Just this week Channel 4 reported this week that in some opinion polls support for the Fn was running at '23 to 24 per cent'.

 

[Joe Reilly]

That argument could equally be used against joining a workplace union though couldn't it? And I did say there were differences - but the similarities lie in the type of work we'll be doing. And since our work will put us in direct conflict with the labour council I'm not sure unite will always be so quick to claim it as their own.

I should have made myself clearer - it is of course Labour Cllrs that will quickly claim any success/impact you have as their own.

 

[ayatollah]

In all honesty I've been trying to fathom that myself. According to them it's about empowering people without access to workplace unions in their communities and demonstrating the power of collective action. The intention is to, if possible, eventually have a branch in every estate in the city, and I assume every other city/town too, but we're nowhere near that stage yet. But we're basically being left to do what we want with it and the more active people among us are wanting to take it in a broadly IWCA-like direction (without the part about standing people in council elections obviously). As I said, I suspect that at some point the leadership will realise what they've unleashed and try and reign us in. I'm hoping that by that time we'll have demonstrated to other members the utility of our approach and if we are forced to leave others will leave with us to form an independent organisation.

Seems like an excellent initiative to get involved in SpineyNorman - grass roots political work in working class communities, with direct connection to a mass membership trades union, and therefore the wider labour movement. Ok, you stir up "trouble" for the union bigwigs or local (Labour) Council ,and you eventually get chucked out... but so what .. in the meantime I can't see all the downsides that Joe and others do I must say. As Frogwoman has said on an earlier post - it sounds quite IWCA ish to me -- but NOT disconnected from the labour movement. Surely we need as much locally-based radical mobilisation and resistance activities across the UK as we can get - without getting too bogged down in fears about " TU bureaucrats or Labour councillors" getting credit -- in fact as SpineyNorman says - any effective action will send em scurrying for cover.

 

[articul8]

It was only as a result of their abandonment of their strategy that they were able to lift the AFA boot of their neck and flourish.

So your success was in driving fascism into more effective tactics?

 

[SpineyNorman]

I should have made myself clearer - it is of course Labour Cllrs that will quickly claim any success/impact you have as their own.

I think that is very, very unlikely. They're the people we'll be campaigning against and trying to expose.

 

[SpineyNorman]

So your success was in driving fascism into more effective tactics?

That's a bit out of order tbh. Whatever disagreements we might have now, I've got massive respect for the work people like Joe did in AFA and to an extent they were the reason why the old march and grow stuff was inefective. They also stopped a lot of people, particularly middle class people, from joining the far right because they didn't have the stomach for physical confrontation.

 

[ayatollah]

That's a bit out of order tbh. Whatever disagreements we might have now, I've got massive respect for the work people like Joe did in AFA and to an extent they were the reason why the old march and grow stuff was inefective. They also stopped a lot of people, particularly middle class people, from joining the far right because they didn't have the stomach for physical confrontation.

I'd like to second that, SpineyNorman.

 

[frogwoman]

yep not the world's biggest fan of the current IWCA's politics but AFA etc did have real success in keeping the fash off the streets. I don't have much time for people that say that physical force anti-fascism can never be a valid tactic.

And it did bring results. It stopped the fash from organising effectlvely and whatever you think of their politics now you can't deny that.

 

[Red Storm]

Joe has made the point to me before that the fascists would have eventually turned to electoral politics. Except without AFA's efforts they would have had a street army when they did.

 

[Red Storm]

On another note I got hold of "Making of Red Action" and "We are Red Action" pamphlets today

 

[The Prestonian]

So your success was in driving fascism into more effective tactics?

Thats bullshit mate and you know it. Yeah, its shit that the BNP poll votes in the hundreds of thousands, but I'd prefer that to letting them have a free run on the streets. The truth is in certain areas of the country the BNP have still never recovered there street presence. I fail to see them crawling out of the woodwork once every four years as the fleeting focal point of thousands of dissillusioned peoples is an ''effective tactic''.

 

[articul8]

Joe has made the point to me before that the fascists would have eventually turned to electoral politics. Except without AFA's efforts they would have had a street army when they did.

Good comeback. Welcome Prestonian by the way - from an exiled Prestonian.

 

[frogwoman]

Thats bullshit mate and you know it. Yeah, its shit that the BNP poll votes in the hundreds of thousands, but I'd prefer that to letting them have a free run on the streets. The truth is in certain areas of the country the BNP have still never recovered there street presence. I fail to see them crawling out of the woodwork once every four years as the fleeting focal point of thousands of dissillusioned peoples is an ''effective tactic''.

Labour's strategy against our goose-stepping chums was completely effective, obviously.

 

[articul8]

Labour's strategy against our goose-stepping chums was completely effective, obviously.

To be honest, I think we owe more to those under Uncle Joe than Joe Reilly if we're looking at it in historical perspective (at least after the fucking stupid Hitler-Stalin pact) -

 

[SpineyNorman]

To be honest, I think we owe more to those under Uncle Joe than Joe Reilly if we're looking at it in historical perspective (at least after the fucking stupid Hitler-Stalin pact) -

I don't think anyone was suggesting that red action/afa were a more formidable force than the red army - nobody claimed that they stopped Hitler or anything like that. Just that they were important in putting a brake on fascist growth in the 80s and 90s. That's just a really odd comment.

 

[articul8]

repelling fascism is crucially important work. But it doesn't follow that it's the sole measure of political worth. The USSR made a massive contribution to defeating fascism in the 40s yet...

 

[romeo2001]

It is true that the 'subsequent growth' came after they were forced to abandon the streets. The dividend was in the fact that they were unable to electorally capitalise earlier. For example after losing to AFA in a town centre confrontation in Burnley the BNP took a total of 9 votes in a subsequent by-election.

Those of a liberal bent would have assumed that the laugable return, was proof that Burnley was a haven of tolerance. Yet in 2002 the BNP took 10,000 votes there.

Obviously the BNP support did not rise a thousand fold in the interim. So to a large extent what is referred to in BTF as the 'reservoir of reaction' was give or take an ever present. What AFA determind to do was to prevent the far-right tapping into it.

It was only as a result of their abandonment of their strategy that they were able to lift the AFA boot of their neck and flourish.

Around the same time AFA was applying it's strategy in this country, the French by conrast were relying on the likes of SOS Racisme in theirs.


As a consequence the French Far-right were allowed a free run for over 30 years.

Just this week Channel 4 reported this week that in some opinion polls support for the Fn was running at '23 to 24 per cent'.

I think the importance of showing that the far right can not only be challenged on their own terms but also comprehesively beaten is something that is often forgotten today. People are attracted to strenght and success - if you see the nazi who you thought had all the answers battered ona regular basis it tends to put people off joining up and not just because it might happen to them as well. At the end of the day the representation of among working class people of the right is one of strength (thru bullying admittedly but when has that stopped anyone getting support) Sadly most people I grew up with have had no contact with the left bar oddball geography teacher types.

 

[Joe Reilly]

So your success was in driving fascism into more effective tactics?

Yep, we showed them the error of their ways. Mind you it took 20 years for the penny to drop. But enough of the simpelton's view. In reality the BNP were perfectly prepared to combine a street presence with electoral work. Organisationally, that indeed would have been the optimum strategy. And as we all know there was evidence of a public appetite for fascism red in tooth and claw. The Isle of Dogs is one example. But they missed out on a second cllr by a whisker, about 30 votes shy I think, in canning town.

The factor in common?

They were allowed to go about their business unmolested. As BTF explains the Isle of Dogs was considered difficult ground for Afa's 'traditional' approach. Canning Town we didn't even know about.

So, if they hadn't spent the first twenty years with security occupying 95 per cent of their time who knows where they'd be now?

Well, much of mainland Europe, where the far-right have generally been allowed to go about their business unmolested for decades, though not an exact replica or course, must nonetheless be considered to be something of a guide.

 

[audiotech]

Some credit is due to those of us working class militants about in the 70's, involved in ANL mk1 too of course, on the streets dealing with the likes of the NF and British Movement.

 

[Riklet]

repelling fascism is crucially important work. But it doesn't follow that it's the sole measure of political worth. The USSR made a massive contribution to defeating fascism in the 40s yet...

What an utterly weird remark. I don't think anyone has been claiming AFA or any other group came or have come close to "defeating fascism" on some sort of international level, all by themselves.

Quite flattering (although bizarre) that you see the need to compare them to the effectiveness of Soviet military and industrial power though

 

[articul8]

as we all know there was evidence of a public appetite for fascism red in tooth and claw.

Do we really? You've pointed to one victory and one near miss at ward level in a very narrow geographical area.. What's to say this wasn't just a local anomaly?

 

[articul8]

Quite flattering (although bizarre) that you see the need to compare them to the effectiveness of Soviet military and industrial power though

That wasn't what I was saying and you know it. I was asking whether a capacity for effective anti-fascist work was the sole measure of a tendency's political contribution.

 

[SpineyNorman]

repelling fascism is crucially important work. But it doesn't follow that it's the sole measure of political worth. The USSR made a massive contribution to defeating fascism in the 40s yet...

Yet what? We're talking purely about antifascism here. Of course it's not the sole measure of political worth. And since I'm not of the opinion that everything about the USSR was negative that one's even further off target than the last one. (Christ, I'm gonna end up arguing with everyone now - I've pissed the labourite liberal off by defending militant antifascism and I've probably pissed the anti-Leninists off too now).

 

[articul8]

"labourite liberal" my arse - I'm not against physical confrontation with fascists where necessary. I'm just probing some of the assumptions and plaudits that AFA is making for itself. (Nor - fwiw - did I say that everything about the USSR was negative).

 

[love detective]

I was asking whether a capacity for effective anti-fascist work was the sole measure of a tendency's political contribution.

Of course not - but you're just creating a strawman argument

Do the quotes below from BTF suggest an assumption that effective anti-fascist work is the sole measure of a tendency's political contribution?

Thus the first step in trying to build any progressive working class movement was to remove the fascists from any areas, be it cultural (football or music) or geographical, where they might enjoy influence. As any form of co-existence was a non-starter, it was only with the space vacated the Left could attempt to ‘fill the vacuum’, militants would argue.

AFA activists in east London had begun to report being increasingly asked, “Okay, so you’re against the BNP, but what are you for?” Invariably they were stuck for an immediate reply, since to be true to itself as a political negative, anti-fascism could hope to be nothing more than ‘against’.

Therefore, when the fascists were violently removed from a music venue, a paper sale, or their marches were attacked, there was no pro-active strategy to fill the political vacuum that had been fashioned. For the militants ‘creating the space’ by driving out the fascists was reward in itself. Right up until 1994 militant anti-fascists genuinely believed that the political vacuum created by them would be somehow or other filled by the wider Left. As events show, they were mistaken.

Leaving aside the reality that anti-fascism as a negative cannot be in the business of ‘creating’ anything,

 

[articul8]

I don't quite get the "stage-ism" involved in the above - first eviscerate the fascists and create a space that you can then think about filling...why isn't (positive) politics part and parcel of anti-fascism?

Why was 94 so decisive? (post the taking back of Beackon's seat...)?