Beating the Fascists: The authorised history of Anti-Fascist Action

[Pickman's model]

Well there haven't been, not on that scale. That was the largest mass arrest in the Met's history.

It was a gamble and it nearly worked . As it turns out there have been substantial pay outs to all those arrested.

Which mass arrests are you talking about Flying Pig?

er the largest mass arrests since 1990 were the 600 or so fascists picked up the day of the bloody sunday march in 1993

 

[Pickman's model]

Well there haven't been, not on that scale. That was the largest mass arrest in the Met's history.

It was a gamble and it nearly worked . As it turns out there have been substantial pay outs to all those arrested.

Which mass arrests are you talking about Flying Pig?

i've been racking my brains and i'm struggling to think of subsequent mass arrests. perhaps The Flying Pig will elaborate. or more likely not.

 

[The Flying Pig]

jesus mary and joseph, it looks like you fell out of the stupid tree and bashed your head on every branch.

did i say there had been no mass arrests since? er no.

i said there had been nothing on a similar scale ie nothing on a scale of hundreds.

incidentally, that was london anti-fascists, part of the anti-fascist network, and not antifa. you're full of fail.

You are spreading misinformation, I will leave it there.

 

[Red Sky]

You are spreading misinformation, I will leave it there.

As opposed to saying there's been mass arrests of anti fascists that have never happened?

 

[Pickman's model]

You are spreading misinformation, I will leave it there.

Right. So the facts which can easily be verified are you claim misinformation. Utter tosh.

 

[love detective]

'the collapse of.....Anti-Fascist Action'

 

[Pickman's model]

'the collapse of.....Anti-Fascist Action'

yeh and not just that

 

[The39thStep]

As I recall the No Platform Group was shortlived and not exactly overburdoned with success even on its own very limited agenda and we've already catalogued the sorry demise of Antifa. Anyway re reading the blurb is sort of translates into although the BNP and the EDL were the biggest threat we had a go at some of the smaller groupings so we'll talk about that instead. I'd be interested in what they might suggest the tactics are against the TR/Gen-I/DFLA circus.

 

[Joe Reilly]

As I recall the No Platform Group was shortlived and not exactly overburdoned with success even on its own very limited agenda and we've already catalogued the sorry demise of Antifa. Anyway re reading the blurb is sort of translates into although the BNP and the EDL were the biggest threat we had a go at some of the smaller groupings so we'll talk about that instead. I'd be interested in what they might suggest the tactics are against the TR/Gen-I/DFLA circus.

That is exactly the point. Rather than adjust tactics and strategies in order to address a new and significantly more substantial challenge and focus on where the main body of the far-right is actually grouped up, they opt to turn away from that reality in order to beat the bushes to flush out the puniest and wholly irrelevant elements of some by now obscure far-right sub-culture in order to justify their existence as 'militants'.

The under-pinning for all of it, is the fiction of the "sudden AFA collapse" with business left unfinished.

That Hope not Hate were happy to provide an 'AFA speaker' for a recent meeting in Hackney, and now this, suggests such brazen revisionism is being actively pursued and is not confined to discredited historians like Dave Renton and the occasional No Retreat devotee.

 

[Red Sky]

That is exactly the point. Rather than adjust tactics and strategies in order to address a new and significantly more substantial challenge and focus on where the main body of the far-right is actually grouped up, they opt to turn away from that reality in order to beat the bushes to flush out the puniest and wholly irrelevant elements of some by now obscure far-right sub-culture in order to justify their existence as 'militants'.

The under-pinning for all of it, is the fiction of the "sudden AFA collapse" with business left unfinished.

That Hope not Hate were happy to provide an 'AFA speaker' for a recent meeting in Hackney, and now this, suggests such brazen revisionism is being actively pursued and is not confined to discredited historians like Dave Renton and the occasional No Retreat devotee.

This is purporting to be an AFN talk and isn't.

 

[Joe Reilly]

This is purporting to be an AFN talk and isn't.

The American meeting?

 

[Red Sky]

The American meeting?

It looks like a tour.

 

[Magnus McGinty]

Who is it then?

 

[M Testa]

Plod:
Alleged National Action leader 'urged neo-Nazi to kill Amber Rudd in terror attack', court hears

 

[Arbeter Fraynd]

That is exactly the point. Rather than adjust tactics and strategies in order to address a new and significantly more substantial challenge and focus on where the main body of the far-right is actually grouped up, they opt to turn away from that reality in order to beat the bushes to flush out the puniest and wholly irrelevant elements of some by now obscure far-right sub-culture in order to justify their existence as 'militants'.
The under-pinning for all of it, is the fiction of the "sudden AFA collapse" with business left unfinished.

My experience, having been centrally involved in one local and short-lived 'No Platform' group, is that however sound the reasons were for AFA coming to an end it did seem like the radical resistance had disappeared, the ANL were up to their usual nonsense and there was a desperate need for something. The city I was in was surrounded by BNP success stories, and the No Platform group was mostly people from the hunt sab/anarchist/squatter type scenes trying to work out what we could usefully do. I did try to make contact with older AFA activists, which was successful in one town, but I didn't get any replies trying to get in touch with national AFA/IWCA PO boxes etc, maybe no-one was keeping them going by that point. We did support local community activists with help with security etc. But with the exception of one small town where we hooked up with a local older AFA group we weren't at all rooted in the communities where the BNP were doing well, and any attempt at an IWCA type activism would have been a joke. I never wanted to be the main instigator of a local group and never thought I had all the answers, but no-one else was doing it locally and the BNP were doing scarily well nearby.

There were a few small successes I reckon - disrupting a couple of marches, exposing a BNP activist and leafleting his estate, helping an explicitly antifascist gig happen in a town where the BNP were active... but my analysis was we were a small group trying to work out what we could realistically do, pretty well informed, up for it and committed but not well positioned to actually do a lot of what needed doing.

But yeah, not sure how many useful lessons US Antifa could learn from that, other than the oft-repeated inability of activists to usefully work together and learn from/support each other over generations as things change...

 

[Joe Reilly]

My experience, having been centrally involved in one local and short-lived 'No Platform' group, is that however sound the reasons were for AFA coming to an end it did seem like the radical resistance had disappeared, the ANL were up to their usual nonsense and there was a desperate need for something.

No matter how you cut it, once the far-right abandoned physical force in favour of the ballot box, directing working class communities hungry for change, back to the status quo is the very opposite of radical.

Developing a plausible alternative both to the establishment parties and the far-right continues to be the task in hand. It is that "there is a desperate need for". That was the conclusion the AFA leadership arrived at in the late 1990's. It was the right decision then and is still right decision two decades later.

Can you honestly look at what is happening in Italy, Germany Austria, Denmark, Sweden, France (and almost certainly In the UK again post Brexit) and come to a different conclusion?

 

[Red Sky]

No matter how you cut it, once the far-right abandoned physical force in favour of the ballot box, directing working class communities hungry for change, back to the status quo is the very opposite of radical.

Developing a plausible alternative both to the establishment parties and the far-right continues to be the task in hand. It is that "there is a desperate need for". That was the conclusion the AFA leadership arrived at in the late 1990's. It was the right decision then and is still right decision two decades later.

Can you honestly look at what is happening in Italy, Germany Austria, Denmark, Sweden, France (and almost certainly In the UK again post Brexit) and come to a different conclusion?

And when the far right adopt a twin (or even triple) track strategy?

 

[Pickman's model]

No matter how you cut it, once the far-right abandoned physical force in favour of the ballot box, directing working class communities hungry for change, back to the status quo is the very opposite of radical.

Developing a plausible alternative both to the establishment parties and the far-right continues to be the task in hand. It is that "there is a desperate need for". That was the conclusion the AFA leadership arrived at in the late 1990's. It was the right decision then and is still right decision two decades later.

Can you honestly look at what is happening in Italy, Germany Austria, Denmark, Sweden, France (and almost certainly In the UK again post Brexit) and come to a different conclusion?

yeh. there is a need for a plausible alternative to the establishment and far-right parties, but the iwca seems to have foundered and i'd be interested in what lessons participants took from that from which any similarly inclined organization might learn

 

[Arbeter Fraynd]

No matter how you cut it, once the far-right abandoned physical force in favour of the ballot box, directing working class communities hungry for change, back to the status quo is the very opposite of radical.

Developing a plausible alternative both to the establishment parties and the far-right continues to be the task in hand. It is that "there is a desperate need for". That was the conclusion the AFA leadership arrived at in the late 1990's. It was the right decision then and is still right decision two decades later.

Can you honestly look at what is happening in Italy, Germany Austria, Denmark, Sweden, France (and almost certainly In the UK again post Brexit) and come to a different conclusion?

I never saw it as either/or. And am not convinced that the far-right ever exactly abandoned force and the street - the BNP mostly did although there were still street marches in the NW after they'd claimed they weren't going to do any more. And while the BNP's electoral success was a big part of the story of far-right development in recent times, its not very long at all til you have a clear divide between UKIP and the EDL, ie the far-right clearly having more than one strategy and approach.

I have massive respect for AFA and a lot of sympathy for the politics that led to the IWCA but I don't really see the BNP in the late 90s as such a massive shift in the history of the far-right. There has always been a need for reactive anti-fascism as well as broader politics and I don't think that changed. Seeing as we're currently witnessing the biggest far-right street protests in many decades, alongside the collapse of both the BNP and UKIP, I don't think things have turned out quite as predicted by AFA leadership at the time.

 

[TopCat]

yeh. there is a need for a plausible alternative to the establishment and far-right parties, but the iwca seems to have foundered and i'd be interested in what lessons participants took from that from which any similarly inclined organization might learn

From my recollection It was asserted that the failure of the IWCA was the fault of those who refused to join.

 

[The39thStep]

And when the far right adopt a twin (or even triple) track strategy?

The stopped clock approach. Keep the powder dry.

 

[Red Sky]

The stopped clock approach. Keep the powder dry.

Does this mean anything? (Even to you)

 

[TopCat]

Does this mean anything? (Even to you)

Yeah. Don't revise failed tactics. Wait (however long) for the opposition to fit the frame then act.

 

[Red Sky]

Yeah. Don't revise failed tactics. Wait (however long) for the opposition to fit the frame then act.

Bit of a straw man in that case.

 

[Magnus McGinty]

yeh. there is a need for a plausible alternative to the establishment and far-right parties, but the iwca seems to have foundered and i'd be interested in what lessons participants took from that from which any similarly inclined organization might learn

They’re having to plough a furrow between the liberal and mentalist left and somehow appeal to the wc who are put off progressive politics because most of the people involved aren’t working class and don’t reflect their struggles.
Perhaps wannabe activists might turn up to a left wing event and get to meet public-school educated pedants, or be accused of being a fascist and then tar the IWCA with the same brush?
It’s complex but I do think they’re hampered by a great misconception that as the left generally aren’t working class, that the IWCA follow suit.

 

[Pickman's model]

They’re having to plough a furrow between the liberal and mentalist left and somehow appeal to the wc who are put off progressive politics because most of the people involved aren’t working class and don’t reflect their struggles.
Perhaps wannabe activists might turn up to a left wing event and get to meet public-school educated pedants, or be accused of being a fascist and then tar the IWCA with the same brush?
It’s complex but I do think they’re hampered by a great misconception that as the left generally aren’t working class, that the IWCA follow suit.

Hackney independent, which iirc split off the iwca, came within spitting distance of getting a councillor in haggerston, if memory serves, based on community work and canvassing. the will was there and if the structure had been resilient enough to last I think they might have got a councillor. I can't now see an electoral vehicle working in hackney due to decades of gentrification, as labour get almost returns despite their role promoting destruction of council estates. I'd be interested in hearing from people who had been in the iwca to hear what they think the prospects for electoral interventions are now: I'm not sure that's a conversation you're after having.

 

[Magnus McGinty]

Hackney independent, which iirc split off the iwca, came within spitting distance of getting a councillor in haggerston, if memory serves, based on community work and canvassing. the will was there and if the structure had been resilient enough to last I think they might have got a councillor. I can't now see an electoral vehicle working in hackney due to decades of gentrification, as labour get almost returns despite their role promoting destruction of council estates. I'd be interested in hearing from people who had been in the iwca to hear what they think the prospects for electoral interventions are now: I'm not sure that's a conversation you're after having.

That wasn’t your original question, which is what I responded to.

 

[Pickman's model]

That wasn’t your original question, which is what I responded to.

Yeh. I'm not persuaded, by your language, that you were actually in the iwca. So I don't think so much weight can be given to your response. I apologise if I'm wrong and if that's the case look forward to you sharing something of your experiences.

 

[Magnus McGinty]

Yeh. I'm not persuaded, by your language, that you were actually in the iwca. So I don't think so much weight can be given to your response. I apologise if I'm wrong and if that's the case look forward to you sharing something of your experiences.

I never claimed I was. Historically on here posters enquire about the demise of the IWCA in order to crow about it. Apols if that wasn’t what you were doing.

 

[Fozzie Bear]

My recollection is that Pickman’s was always quite supportive of Hackney IWCA/Independent.

I think there is still a role for that sort of work in Hackney if enough people had the time and energy for it. There are certainly enough housing struggles going on (Northwold, Stamford Hill and Lincoln Court estates all fighting infill) along with some high profile industrial disputes (Picture House and Hackney College).

But I think he has a point about the changing class composition of the area and electoralism - we'd also need to bring in the baneful influence of Momentum and Corbyn's Labour into the equation - something that has regrettably even absorbed one former member of Hackney Independent.

We shouldn't forget that electoralism was only ever a tactic.