Beating the Fascists: The authorised history of Anti-Fascist Action

[Red Sky]

No.

I know of groups who have the sense to place anti-fascism within a wider political context and who would spit on the idea of anti-fascist specialists who were successful in achieving anti-fascists ends.

If this self-pimpery continues i think the aim must soon be to close the gyms.

So to answer the question, it's just these failed specialists, not other specialists. OK.

So "Anti Fascist Action" , the "43 Group" etc etc don't fit your definition of specialist groups?

 

[Red Sky]

Didn’t they also pull in wider numbers?

Of course. But that's not a unique M.O is it ?

 

[Magnus McGinty]

So "Anti Fascist Action" , the "43 Group" etc etc don't fit your definition of specialist groups?

You can’t describe either of those as simply ‘reactive’ either. They took the initiative and put the opposition on the back foot, organised their own events/marches etc that pulled in wider numbers.

 

[butchersapron]

So "Anti Fascist Action" , the "43 Group" etc etc don't fit your definition of specialist groups?

They clearly fit yours and your own self-image - so we're trapped there forever. No other way of approaching anti-fascism other than by specialists doing specialist stuff, fucking it up, getting nicked then doing specialist prison-support.

And no, i don't think they fit a definition of specialist groups anyway - the 43 group would be closest to that simply due to the training and proximity to the war and the pre-war battles.

Tell me, what do you mean by specialist?

 

[Red Sky]

You can’t describe either of those as simply ‘reactive’ either. They took the initiative and put the opposition on the back foot, organised their own events/marches etc that pulled in wider numbers.

I think we're talking at cross purposes . They are reactive in the sense that without organised fascists they wouldn't need to exist. Of course reactive anti fascism can be pro active.

 

[Red Sky]

They clearly fit yours and your own self-image - so we're trapped there forever. No other way of approaching anti-fascism other than by specialists doing specialist stuff, fucking it up, getting nicked then doing specialist prison-support.

And no, i don't think they fit a definition of specialist groups anyway - the 43 group would be closest to that simply due to the training and proximity to the war and the pre-war battles.

Tell me, what do you mean by specialist?

Getting together with like minded people to focus on a single activity. Like Acorn would be "specialists" in the field of housing issues.

 

[butchersapron]

Getting together with like minded people to focus on a single activity. Like Acorn would be "specialists" in the field of housing issues.

This is an utterly worthless use of specialist.

 

[butchersapron]

Getting together with like minded people to focus on a single activity. Like Acorn would be "specialists" in the field of housing issues.

ACORN who allowed a green councillor BTL landlord to join and guide their actions. That's the problem with selling yourself as specialists.

 

[Fozzie Bear]

From a 43 Group leaflet.

We surely don't need to go into AFA and Cable Street Beat, exhibitions for schools, Unity Carnival, excellent magazines, benefit albums etc.

 

[Red Sky]

This is an utterly worthless use of specialist.

Do you find this approach helps you much in life?

 

[Magnus McGinty]

I think we're talking at cross purposes . They are reactive in the sense that without organised fascists they wouldn't need to exist. Of course reactive anti fascism can be pro active.

Furthermore, the politics of Red Action that consistently argued that you can’t just beat back the far right, you then have to fill that political space that you’ve created.
What’s wrong with that analysis? So many on the left ignore it and then go onto their pet projects of *bites lip* ... almost there LynnDoyleCooper

 

[Red Sky]

Furthermore, the politics of Red Action that consistently argued that you can’t just beat back the far right, you then have to fill that political space that you’ve created.
What’s wrong with that analysis? So many on the left ignore it and then go onto their pet projects of *bites lip* ... almost there LynnDoyleCooper

But also presumably that organised fascism needed to be combatted by other means alongside building up a leftist alternative.

 

[Red Sky]

ACORN who allowed a green councillor BTL landlord to join and guide their actions. That's the problem with selling yourself as specialists.

Even in your parlous state does the above seem to make any sense?

 

[butchersapron]

Do you find this approach helps you much in life?

Do i find that pointing out that you're using a term - a term with a real long and very definite history on the left - in a way that doesn't really correspond to accepted historical use to be of any help in clarifying what a discussion centrally involving the concept is about? Well, yes and no - depends how passive aggressive you choose to be with it. In my life, no because it's not very important is it?

 

[butchersapron]

Even in your parlous state does the above seem to make any sense?

It makes perfect sense. What on earth are you on about?

 

[Red Sky]

Do i find that pointing out that you're using a term with a real long and very definite history on the left in a way that doesn't really correspond to accepted historical use to be of any help in clarifying what a discussion centrally involving the concept is about? Well, yes and no - depends how passive aggressive you choose to be with it. In my life, no because it's not very important is it?

Probably not as well versed in leftist dogma as you that's true. I said "specialised" in any case not "specialist".

 

[butchersapron]

Probably not as well versed in leftist dogma as you that's true. I said "specialised" in any case not "specialist".

And you then went on to offer an extended defence of the idea of specialists. Anti-fascist specialists.

 

[Red Sky]

And you then went on to offer an extended defence of the idea of specialists. Anti-fascist specialists.

Of which history supplies us with many useful examples.

 

[Magnus McGinty]

But also presumably that organised fascism needed to be combatted by other means alongside building up a leftist alternative.

Of course. But it can never just be about having a ruck. Fun day out and all, but what’s the end goal?

 

[butchersapron]

Of which history supplies us with many useful examples.

So why say that you meant specialised and not specialistion? What does this gain you?

And again, what is this specialisation? Is it self-certifying? How do you judge it - by how much you raise for the prison support fund? What is its basis for proclamations of special-hood? What about non-specialists - they're not recognised as anti-fascist by definition in this model are they. So most people at Cable street weren't anti-fascists.

 

[Red Sky]

Of course. But it can never just be about having a ruck. Fun day out and all, but what’s the end goal?

A network of self sustaining autonomous tree villages of course.

 

[Red Sky]

So why say that you meant specialised and not specialistion? What does this gain you?

And again, what is this specialisation? Is it self-certifying? How do you judge it - by how much you raise for the prison support fund? What is its basis for proclamations of special-hood? What about non-specialists - they're not recognised as anti-fascist by definition in this model are they. So most people at Cable street weren't anti-fascists.

Again - does this (increasingly clumsy) approach get you anywhere much in life?

 

[butchersapron]

Again - does this (increasingly clumsy) approach get you anywhere much in life?

Why are you doing this? It speaks of total failure to understand what's at issue here - politically - beyond an infantile self-hero-isation.

 

[Red Sky]

So why say that you meant specialised and not specialistion? What does this gain you?

And again, what is this specialisation? Is it self-certifying? How do you judge it - by how much you raise for the prison support fund? What is its basis for proclamations of special-hood? What about non-specialists - they're not recognised as anti-fascist by definition in this model are they. So most people at Cable street weren't anti-fascists.

To take this to pieces. Nobody is talking about who is a "real anti fascist" outside your fevered imagination.

The question is, is there a role for organisations who focus on combatting the far right? Whatever tactics , including mass mobilisation, that they use.

 

[butchersapron]

To take this to pieces. Nobody is talking about who is a "real anti fascist" outside your fevered imagination.

The question is, is there a role for organisations who focus on combatting the far right? Whatever tactics , including mass mobilisation, that they use.

I didn't mention 'real anti-fascists' - that's your imagination running overtime, not mine. You clearly outlined a position then defended it - that is, anti-fascism is a specialist activity - ignoring what this means as regards definitions of who is anti-fascist, never mind what.

The question i would have to put to you is what basis any such organisation might be formed on - specialists?

 

[Pickman's model]

Anti-fascist groups are specialists, in that to fight fascism you need people with a range of skills bringing their skills to bear on a particular political and practical problem. People who can research, write leaflets, speak in public, design stickers, designing websites etc as necessary as those who can fight. Finding information on fascists is perhaps easier than it was, but it's still a time consuming business. That's not to say only specialists are needed: but that it's a political project to persuade as much as if not more so than a purely pugilistick one, as there's a need to build something positive not simply win fights.

 

[Magnus McGinty]

A network of self sustaining autonomous tree villages of course.

With conspiraloons for neighbours. So we need some politics too rather than a mish mash of people ‘opposing fascism’. As otherwise, all we’re doing is protecting the political centre from the far right.

 

[past caring]

"Everyone has their part to play."

 

[The39thStep]

Has anyone seen that very embarrassing video on YouTube , The Battle of Seven Oaks , where some modern day reactive specialists end up looking like a bunch of Jessie's by some middle class Generation Id types and some bloke who thinks by dressing in the right gear makes him look hard?

 

[past caring]

I have now. Ffs.