It is a welcome development - although it's not as if other existing anti-fascists aren't pro-working class. As for putting info out in public to be fair you were the one who announced their ages and the fact they were already involved. I put that together with their statement and took a wild guess as to who has put similar statements out in the past. I might be completely wrong.
Beating the Fascists: The authorised history of Anti-Fascist Action
- Thread starter cogg
- Start date
It is a welcome development - although it's not as if other existing anti-fascists aren't pro-working class. As for putting info out in public to be fair you were the one who announced their ages and the fact they were already involved. I put that together with their statement and took a wild guess as to who has put similar statements out in the past. I might be completely wrong.
There was an AFN bloc on the recent Kurdish solidarity march in London. Anti-fascists have gone to fight ISIS.
framed
Leave it!
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framed
Leave it!
So Red Sky, your basic line appears to be something to the effect of, 'been there, done that'.
Pro-working class? Anti-ISIS?
All boxes already ticked, so how come this group has organised itself into a Red Action style outfit, if all this has already been covered by existing organisations?
As far as your wild guesswork is concerned, haven't you learnt your lesson from already trying to 'out' butchers apron on this thread? You wasted 2 pages recently making a dick of yourself over that one.
Here's the link again for those who are genuinely interested in this new development.
I'll repost it every time you waste a page with your derailing drivel Red Sky
RED ANTIFA
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So Red Sky, your basic line appears to be something to the effect of, 'been there, done that'.
Pro-working class? Anti-ISIS?
All boxes already ticked, so how come this group has organised itself into a Red Action style outfit, if all this has already been covered by existing organisations?
As far as your wild guesswork is concerned, haven't you learnt your lesson from already trying to 'out' butchers apron on this thread? You wasted 2 pages recently making a dick of yourself over that one.
Here's the link again for those who are genuinely interested in this new development.
I'll repost it every time you waste a page with your derailing drivel Red Sky
RED ANTIFA
So your whole aim is to have a sectarian dust up. Why? You're reading far more into my comments than is there.
As I said it's a welcome development, more power to their elbow and lets see where it goes.
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They've made a 'wild guess' at who you are too, but please keep digging that hole...
Fair enough - say hello for me.
Smokeandsteam
Working Class First
I noticed that too. I also noticed the pro working class orientation. Both unusual, both welcome and make me strongly supportive of those involved.
i was aware of the latter but not of the former. interesting, and good stuff. i'm sure there would be many kurds interested in this development. great care required though - it was the sight of kurds and isis supporters clashing in Hamburg in 2014 that kick-started Pegida over there.
framed
Leave it!
Red Sky I would suggest that it's you that needs to wind your neck in.
Rather than a 'sectarian dust up' I'd prefer to take a closer look at the historically illiterate analysis you offered a few pages back when challenged by butchers.
Griffin didn't announce the 'no more meetings, marches, or punch-ups' - It was Tony Lecomber. And it wasn't in 1992, it was April 1994 to be precise. Far-right street activity continued long after that. AFA was still fighting them physically in Glasgow up to 1998 and in Edinburgh the fash were still making appearances into the 2000's. AFA activists in London, the North West, Bristol and the Midlands were still engaged against the fascists up to the late 90's and beyond. You can't even get your dates and facts right.
Really? Orange Marches? Do you even know or understand the nature of the Orange Order and Loyalism? There maybe some parallels, but nothing the EDL did looks like an Orange March, maybe the more militant but smaller Loyalist 'Fleg' Protests, certainly not the Orange Order. Yes, they may have learned some street tactics from Loyalism (Britain First though is the organisation that wants to emulate loyalism). The EDL used the tactics of the big national football firm and applied it on the street primarily to agitate against Islamism.
- You might as well say that every football hooligan firm is an 'online phenomenon', but some of them also exist in reality. This is meaningless drivel. There isn't a fascist group in Britland post-war that that has tried to establish 'day-to-day control of the streets'. WTF are you talking about? Their main aim has been to establish themselves as a political force and to be publicly recognised across the country as a viable alternative to the political status quo. Those occasions where they have sought to 'control the streets' have been with the general intention of raising the public profile and attempting through one-off events and marches to demonstrate that they are capable of physically defeating any opposition from the left.., The fact that it hasn't worked for them so far has been down to physical force anti-fascism, but none of them ever got near to the position of 'day to day control'. To achieve that would require vastly greater numbers and a situation of almost 'dual power' between the fascists and the state.
Not entirely true. Lennon and Carrol both ran for election under the British Freedom Party, which for a short while was seen as the political wing of the EDL.
A confident assertion. Lots of groups exist, but there is a level of unity and co-operation among them. The 'disarray' may only be temporary.
Rather than a 'sectarian dust up' I'd prefer to take a closer look at the historically illiterate analysis you offered a few pages back when challenged by butchers.
Griffin didn't announce the 'no more meetings, marches, or punch-ups' - It was Tony Lecomber. And it wasn't in 1992, it was April 1994 to be precise. Far-right street activity continued long after that. AFA was still fighting them physically in Glasgow up to 1998 and in Edinburgh the fash were still making appearances into the 2000's. AFA activists in London, the North West, Bristol and the Midlands were still engaged against the fascists up to the late 90's and beyond. You can't even get your dates and facts right.
Really? Orange Marches? Do you even know or understand the nature of the Orange Order and Loyalism? There maybe some parallels, but nothing the EDL did looks like an Orange March, maybe the more militant but smaller Loyalist 'Fleg' Protests, certainly not the Orange Order. Yes, they may have learned some street tactics from Loyalism (Britain First though is the organisation that wants to emulate loyalism). The EDL used the tactics of the big national football firm and applied it on the street primarily to agitate against Islamism.
- You might as well say that every football hooligan firm is an 'online phenomenon', but some of them also exist in reality. This is meaningless drivel. There isn't a fascist group in Britland post-war that that has tried to establish 'day-to-day control of the streets'. WTF are you talking about? Their main aim has been to establish themselves as a political force and to be publicly recognised across the country as a viable alternative to the political status quo. Those occasions where they have sought to 'control the streets' have been with the general intention of raising the public profile and attempting through one-off events and marches to demonstrate that they are capable of physically defeating any opposition from the left.., The fact that it hasn't worked for them so far has been down to physical force anti-fascism, but none of them ever got near to the position of 'day to day control'. To achieve that would require vastly greater numbers and a situation of almost 'dual power' between the fascists and the state.
Not entirely true. Lennon and Carrol both ran for election under the British Freedom Party, which for a short while was seen as the political wing of the EDL.
A confident assertion. Lots of groups exist, but there is a level of unity and co-operation among them. The 'disarray' may only be temporary.
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This is Red Antifa's "Statement of Intent" - to be honest you'd find it hard to slide a fag-paper between it and the text you've performed an exegesis on above. Which, by the way, was a leaflet that went out a couple of years in my area.
In the 1990’s, John Tyndall, then leader of the British National Party (BNP) declared that the BNP would no longer be involved in organising marches, holding public meetings or getting involved in punch-ups. This was after a sustained campaign by Anti-Fascist Action and allied groups. The BNP, then the main fascist organisation, had been beaten in a theatre which was absolutely key for growth and eventual victory, the streets. Subsequently, the BNP retreated into the ballot box.
Today the BNP are a shadow of their former selves having been both beaten on the streets and with the rise of UKIP achieving little current electoral success. The floundering of the BNP is largely symbolic, because the BNP were the far-right success story; the veritable mainstream and despite protestations from some quarters of the far-right (Post-BNP, Combat 18, etc), there was always a secret admiration for them and a capitalisation on their success (By far-right standards) when the party became a household name.
In recent years this floundering stagnation has meant a back-to-basics approach for the far right; a return to the streets. Whilst we do not want to count our chickens yet and say that the BNP are gone, they are a barely visible group and less significant than what they were a mere few years ago.
In 2009 the English Defence League (EDL) burst onto the scene signalling the beginning of the return to the streets. The EDL had a simplistic and popular appeal, capitalising on the rampant anti-Muslim bile which pervades British society at the moment (Until the next big scapegoat comes along). This brought with it plastic ‘casual’ elements from the football scene who wanted to prove themselves on the pavement and subsequently brought confrontation to local communities and political opponents. With the odd physical clash here and there, the EDL were literally pulling a couple of thousand on each national demonstration. However, with the defection of their leader to the Quilliam Foundation, like the BNP before them, the EDL is now a shadow of its former self, pulling barely double figures for protests in some localities. Stephen Lennon, one of the founders of the EDL threw in the towel with the aid of the state sponsored think-tank Quilliam. He has now resurfaced and tried to latch onto the PEGIDA brand in order to appeal to a more middle-class demographic. Having failed in its first incarnation, PEGIDA Mark 2 has not got off to the greatest of starts either, pulling way under expected numbers for their first demo under the Lennon leadership. A clearly disappointed Lennon was then left with no other option but to try and fob potential supporters off with yet another fake attack on himself.
What has been left now is the EDL hardcore and smaller groupings such as the North West Infidels (NWI), South East Alliance (SEA), a resurfacing of the British Movement (BM) and the C18 brand, Scottish Defence League (SDL), North East Infidels (NEI), National Action (NA, itself a group which came out of the BNP) and also a salad mix of various continental European groups such as NOP, National Rebirth of Poland (ONR), United Emigrants, “Hooligans Poland” and an assortment of others. Street confrontations have now became the norm.
What does this mean for us as anti-fascists though? Simply put it means we must up our ante in both the physical and the political arenas. We need to stop being a purely reactive force and aim to set the agenda in working class areas, OUR areas. For this to be done we need a working class anti-fascism by and for the working class. We have seen a resurgence in confrontation between ourselves and the far-right but at the moment (Minus a few groups) we are ill prepared to take this on. Of course, not everyone has to be a fighter, it should never be expected of anyone that they MUST physically fight but it should recognised that the politics of the fist and the boot are coming back into the arena. We should all be prepared for this whether we are street fighters or not.
Militant anti-fascism, in general, has scored some notable successes such as taking on and beating the plastic casuals in a fight at the Howard Arms in Sheffield, despite being massively outnumbered; successfully confronting the White Man March in Newcastle in March 2015 (Which resulted in physical injuries for a few of the fascist participants); and the widely publicised success stories of when National Action tried to repeat the White Man March in Liverpool in August 2015. In addition , this year, when various far-right outfits, with Polish “hooligans” at the helm (Excuse the pun), tried to hold a demo in Liverpool – which resulted in an entire police public order unit having to form a Roman style wall in order to escort them to safety – the Polish far-right “hooligans” were humiliated ,as were their supporters who came out that day.
We have known since the days of Benito Mussolini that fascism requires the streets in order to grow, have any influence and take power. We are not going to kid ourselves and say that it is impossible for this to happen because history has shown that it is anything but impossble. Overestimating and underestimating your enemy can only lead to defeat. This will inevitably involve physical confrontation; whether this is going to-to-toe with the fascists, blockading their marches and street stalls, or engaging in other forms of physical activity intended to deny fascists the space to exist and grow.
We at Red Antifa intend to fight the fascists as and when they appear, but also to be realistic about the limitations. Physical anti-fascism is necessary when the left has failed – and the left has well and truly failed the working class. Our intention is to reverse this trend and to be proactive in not just telling people that there is an alternative, but to present the alternative to them. We intend to play our part fully in setting the agenda and not constantly being a reactive force. We need to be out there in our communities, on our estates and in places such as youth clubs and workplaces. This is our constituency and this is ultimately where we will break the back of fascism. The fascists have had it too easy for far too long and this we intend on turning on its head.
To this end we have formed Red Antifa with the explicit intention of driving fascists from our streets, workplaces and estates and denying them the space to exist. We will aim to tackle fascism in all of its forms and whichever face it may be wearing, whether it be the neo-nazism of National Action, the clerical fascism of Anjem Choudhary and his followers, the fascist Jewish Defence League (JDL) or whichever mask the fascists choose to wear.
It is liberal anti-fascism’s refusal to address ALL of the various manifestations of fascism which has led the far-right to have a monopoly on many issues that are of relevance to working class people. All fascists should and will be treated the same, without exception. Compromise has never been an option in the battle against the fascists and we as anti-fascists must represent that tradition. We are politically frank and not afraid to tackle the unpalatable issues which face us as working class people, whatever they may be. To choke the supply of fascist recruits at source, this approach must be paramount.
With this in mind, we look forward to seeing you on the streets.
In the 1990’s, John Tyndall, then leader of the British National Party (BNP) declared that the BNP would no longer be involved in organising marches, holding public meetings or getting involved in punch-ups. This was after a sustained campaign by Anti-Fascist Action and allied groups. The BNP, then the main fascist organisation, had been beaten in a theatre which was absolutely key for growth and eventual victory, the streets. Subsequently, the BNP retreated into the ballot box.
Today the BNP are a shadow of their former selves having been both beaten on the streets and with the rise of UKIP achieving little current electoral success. The floundering of the BNP is largely symbolic, because the BNP were the far-right success story; the veritable mainstream and despite protestations from some quarters of the far-right (Post-BNP, Combat 18, etc), there was always a secret admiration for them and a capitalisation on their success (By far-right standards) when the party became a household name.
In recent years this floundering stagnation has meant a back-to-basics approach for the far right; a return to the streets. Whilst we do not want to count our chickens yet and say that the BNP are gone, they are a barely visible group and less significant than what they were a mere few years ago.
In 2009 the English Defence League (EDL) burst onto the scene signalling the beginning of the return to the streets. The EDL had a simplistic and popular appeal, capitalising on the rampant anti-Muslim bile which pervades British society at the moment (Until the next big scapegoat comes along). This brought with it plastic ‘casual’ elements from the football scene who wanted to prove themselves on the pavement and subsequently brought confrontation to local communities and political opponents. With the odd physical clash here and there, the EDL were literally pulling a couple of thousand on each national demonstration. However, with the defection of their leader to the Quilliam Foundation, like the BNP before them, the EDL is now a shadow of its former self, pulling barely double figures for protests in some localities. Stephen Lennon, one of the founders of the EDL threw in the towel with the aid of the state sponsored think-tank Quilliam. He has now resurfaced and tried to latch onto the PEGIDA brand in order to appeal to a more middle-class demographic. Having failed in its first incarnation, PEGIDA Mark 2 has not got off to the greatest of starts either, pulling way under expected numbers for their first demo under the Lennon leadership. A clearly disappointed Lennon was then left with no other option but to try and fob potential supporters off with yet another fake attack on himself.
What has been left now is the EDL hardcore and smaller groupings such as the North West Infidels (NWI), South East Alliance (SEA), a resurfacing of the British Movement (BM) and the C18 brand, Scottish Defence League (SDL), North East Infidels (NEI), National Action (NA, itself a group which came out of the BNP) and also a salad mix of various continental European groups such as NOP, National Rebirth of Poland (ONR), United Emigrants, “Hooligans Poland” and an assortment of others. Street confrontations have now became the norm.
What does this mean for us as anti-fascists though? Simply put it means we must up our ante in both the physical and the political arenas. We need to stop being a purely reactive force and aim to set the agenda in working class areas, OUR areas. For this to be done we need a working class anti-fascism by and for the working class. We have seen a resurgence in confrontation between ourselves and the far-right but at the moment (Minus a few groups) we are ill prepared to take this on. Of course, not everyone has to be a fighter, it should never be expected of anyone that they MUST physically fight but it should recognised that the politics of the fist and the boot are coming back into the arena. We should all be prepared for this whether we are street fighters or not.
Militant anti-fascism, in general, has scored some notable successes such as taking on and beating the plastic casuals in a fight at the Howard Arms in Sheffield, despite being massively outnumbered; successfully confronting the White Man March in Newcastle in March 2015 (Which resulted in physical injuries for a few of the fascist participants); and the widely publicised success stories of when National Action tried to repeat the White Man March in Liverpool in August 2015. In addition , this year, when various far-right outfits, with Polish “hooligans” at the helm (Excuse the pun), tried to hold a demo in Liverpool – which resulted in an entire police public order unit having to form a Roman style wall in order to escort them to safety – the Polish far-right “hooligans” were humiliated ,as were their supporters who came out that day.
We have known since the days of Benito Mussolini that fascism requires the streets in order to grow, have any influence and take power. We are not going to kid ourselves and say that it is impossible for this to happen because history has shown that it is anything but impossble. Overestimating and underestimating your enemy can only lead to defeat. This will inevitably involve physical confrontation; whether this is going to-to-toe with the fascists, blockading their marches and street stalls, or engaging in other forms of physical activity intended to deny fascists the space to exist and grow.
We at Red Antifa intend to fight the fascists as and when they appear, but also to be realistic about the limitations. Physical anti-fascism is necessary when the left has failed – and the left has well and truly failed the working class. Our intention is to reverse this trend and to be proactive in not just telling people that there is an alternative, but to present the alternative to them. We intend to play our part fully in setting the agenda and not constantly being a reactive force. We need to be out there in our communities, on our estates and in places such as youth clubs and workplaces. This is our constituency and this is ultimately where we will break the back of fascism. The fascists have had it too easy for far too long and this we intend on turning on its head.
To this end we have formed Red Antifa with the explicit intention of driving fascists from our streets, workplaces and estates and denying them the space to exist. We will aim to tackle fascism in all of its forms and whichever face it may be wearing, whether it be the neo-nazism of National Action, the clerical fascism of Anjem Choudhary and his followers, the fascist Jewish Defence League (JDL) or whichever mask the fascists choose to wear.
It is liberal anti-fascism’s refusal to address ALL of the various manifestations of fascism which has led the far-right to have a monopoly on many issues that are of relevance to working class people. All fascists should and will be treated the same, without exception. Compromise has never been an option in the battle against the fascists and we as anti-fascists must represent that tradition. We are politically frank and not afraid to tackle the unpalatable issues which face us as working class people, whatever they may be. To choke the supply of fascist recruits at source, this approach must be paramount.
With this in mind, we look forward to seeing you on the streets.
According to Google via a book called 'Against the Grain' which I've just come across - it was an internal document written by Nick Griffin and Tony Lecomber. It was 1994 though.
framed
Leave it!
You're always right even when you're wrong...
Tony Lecomber and BNP Strategy
Lecomber made the public announcement to the press in April 1994. FFS, the Battle at Waterloo Station was in 1992, but don't let a mere two years and a host of anti-fascist victories get in the way of your revisionism. Just you babble away and make it up as you go along.
P.S. I could drive a lorry through the gap that you think a fag paper would fill between those two statements. If you can't see it, I suggest taking a course in interpretation.
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You're always right even when you're wrong...
Tony Lecomber and BNP Strategy
Lecomber made the public announcement to the press in April 1994. FFS, the Battle at Waterloo Station was in 1992, but don't let a mere two years and a host of anti-fascist victories get in the way of your revisionism. Just you babble away and make it up as you go along.
P.S. I could drive a lorry through the gap that you think a fag paper would fill between those two statements. If you can't see it, I suggest taking a course in interpretation.
What would be the point in your articulate lorry driving? How would it advance anti-fascism?
I'm sorry that the correct degree of veneration for AFA wasn't displayed in our leaflet - perhaps you could draft a disclaimer to be displayed on any future propaganda.
Once again for the removal of any doubt - good luck to Red Antifa.
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Joe Reilly
Well-Known Member
If the essay on anti-fascism by David Renton is your source, it's hardly surprising your facts are all askew. In regard to anti-fascism as historically understood, he is a virulent opponent, (he once described the activities of the 43 Group as 'largely non-violent') and despises AFA in particular.
I once attempted a critique of said essay and it contained so many 'errors' like the one you quoted, I found it impossible. In the end I simply listed them.
If memory serves, the total came to something like 26. Renton is educated. So this is not sloppy research by the semi-literate. It is not history. It is not about the "correct degree of veneration for AFA" as you put it. It is out and out counter-propaganda. Which invariably means improving the facts that get in the way of a satisfyingly revisionist narrative.
But then not letting the facts get in the way of 'a good story' is something you seem rather relaxed about yourself.
There's not much point picking the text of that leaflet apart as if I'd presented it as a PHD thesis. Certainly the idea that Nick Griffin said 'no more marches, no more punch ups' is common currency. Although I'm happy to be corrected, does it undermine the central idea behind the leaflet - which bears a broad similarity to the Red Antifa statement? In my view, it doesn't.
framed
Leave it!
One point I think you've missed here is the significance of it being Lecomber who made that public announcement. Hence the importance that Red Action attached to it. It was in effect the leader of the street footsoldiers issuing the command to stand down. Griffin couldn't have achieved the political turn to the mainstream without Lecomber's support and authority at that time... by the time Lecomber did go, Griffin had secured his own political authority and leadership... and we saw where that ended up.
The39thStep
Urban critical thinker
hopefully Red Antifa will not be waving refugees welcome here banners
cantsin
Well-Known Member
is that your first / main concern for this new group?
Joe Reilly
Well-Known Member
'Common currency' is not really much of a defence - lot's of thing were/are common currency. 'No change of strategy for BNP'. 'Only the scum on estates vote for them'. 'AFA leadership blinked first' -betrayed the anti-fascist movement'. 'UKIP will never win in working class constituencies' etc. All of them common currency at one stage. All of them shown to be wrong. Whether Griffin or Lecomber announced the change of strategy is not the main point of contention. However if you are issuing public statements. presenting yourself as an authority on the subject, then the finer details of why the historic strategy was abandoned is surely something you really ought to be familiar with. Relying on charlatans like Renton, naturally raises the question about your own bone fides.
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Firstly, I have never presented myself as an 'authority' on the subject of anti-fascism in the 80s/early 90s.
Secondly, I have never made any of the assertions above - all of which are effectively derogatory to the anti-fascists of that era, which making a mistake between Lecomber and Griffin's authorship of the 'no more marches, no more punch ups' quote is not.
The leaflet was quite complimentary about your generation's efforts - so I'm not clear why you want to pick a fight. It's one line out of a leaflet that was concerned primarily with events that were occurring at the time - not twenty years before.
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Joe Reilly
Well-Known Member
If you haven't bothered to acquaint yourself with what happened 'before' how can you be sure what is happening now? If you concentrate on the present what do you judge it against? Are you winning or losing? Are you in a position to tell the difference?
For example while you may claim to be "quite complimentary" about what AFA "and allies" (who they?) achieved, it is an opinion without merit, for with a congenital liar like Renton as your primary source, with the best will in the world, you have no idea and seemingly care less about what actually happened "twenty years before."
Truth is, the periods are inextricably linked, each leaving its mark on the generation that comes after. By writing leaflets you are automatically presenting yourself as an authority on a subject you take pride in knowing little about.
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The39thStep
Urban critical thinker
Success is .
What would success be as far as you're concerned?
The39thStep
Urban critical thinker
Achieving what they have said they have set out to do. What about you?
Their remit seems pretty broad. I expect they'll achieve some of it but not all, like most of us.
Joe Reilly
Well-Known Member
Yes indeed, why risk any tactical or strategic changes when the combination of neo-liberalism, identity politics, open borders, and Islamophilia is proving such a roaring success?
And where's this peculiar (and toxic) combination of belief systems to be found?
Joe Reilly
Well-Known Member
You don't have to look too hard. There is nothing peculiar about. Most formerly social democratic parties carry the strain.
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