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Beating the Fascists: The authorised history of Anti-Fascist Action

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Pickman's model said:
it will be the less exciting partial monty
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I very much doubt whether Phil Scraton would have ever agreed to sit on a Panel scrutinising a partial set of redacted documents. Today is very much likely to be the real deal.

123
 
also this from HnH. not sure abaht this!
On a more organised level we are beginning to see a re-emergence of smaller, more aggressive fascist groups, such as the Racial Volunteer Force and some other old Combat 18-type networks
 
malatesta32 said:
also this from HnH. not sure abaht this!
On a more organised level we are beginning to see a re-emergence of smaller, more aggressive fascist groups, such as the Racial Volunteer Force and some other old Combat 18-type networks
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Is the EDL that boring now that they're having to dredge up the RVF and C18...
 
malatesta32 said:
ah thanks dennis! just getting onto the thorny issue of 'squaddism'!
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Trotters own writings were about a very different time and place though so i'm not sure how helpful it would be - at least it should show how folk like him posed such questions - ie the context they are being made :)
 
yeah i just wanted to clarify what he was saying. obviously the 20s/30s in Germany were infinitely more violent and high in fatalities than london in the 70s!!! unbelievably so reading through it all recently. and trotters! good one!
 
malatesta32 said:
yeah i just wanted to clarify what he was saying. obviously the 20s/30s in Germany were infinitely more violent and high in fatalities than london in the 70s!!! unbelievably so reading through it all recently. and trotters! good one!
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The responses were more violent though.

I think his writings are still useful. I think proportionality and pragmatism are important. It was proportional to shot a Nazi dead in the 30s and it could be argued pragmatic too.

I don't think that can be said so much following the second world war.
 
well from what i've been reading there was a lot of shooting going on which, if both sides are armed, ups the ante considerably! i shall be reading 'trotters' the now after downloading loads of other stuff.
 
manny-p said:
Anyone got much info on the racial volunteer force? are they even still around?
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RVF are mainly a website and a handful of secret gigs but are still managing to maintain a bitter feud with B&H over the few remaining ageing skinheads' money for shit CDs. RVF are also calling for 'unity' and are hoping to appeal to the 'good apples' of BH. fat chance.
 
malatesta32 said:
RVF are mainly a website and a handful of secret gigs but are still managing to maintain a bitter feud with B&H over the few remaining ageing skinheads' money for shit CDs. RVF are also calling for 'unity' and are hoping to appeal to the 'good apples' of BH. fat chance.
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Interesting about their beef with B&H. I remember seeing them have a video threatening the EDL and also trying to cause problems/get political capital- out of the racist Kriss Donald killing with a memorial video at the place the poor boy lost his life.
 
Red Storm said:
The responses were more violent though.

I think his writings are still useful. I think proportionality and pragmatism are important. It was proportional to shot a Nazi dead in the 30s and it could be argued pragmatic too.

I don't think that can be said so much following the second world war.
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'To maim not to kill' was the 43 Group edict, post war. Which seems about right. Assuming of course that it is you that is setting the agenda at the time.
 
manny-p said:
Interesting about their beef with B&H. I remember seeing them have a video threatening the EDL and also trying to cause problems/get political capital- out of the racist Kriss Donald killing with a memorial video at the place the poor boy lost his life.
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crivvens, it all goes back to C18 and the split between the sergent majors and the gravy brownings fighting over B&H, then the splits from that and then the splits ... its a headache following it all but it all reflects the lack of unity amongst them - mainly cos of ego, money, drunkenness and stupidity. to us, theyre all the same!
 
Tommo84 said:
The fact that the Manchester branch of the Orange Order talk about City's Anglican roots shows that they see it as part of their narrative in the same way that some antifascists (regardless of levels of involvement) see their Irish Catholic background/Utd support as part of theirs (as you can see in the sources I've used).
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Interestingly one of the incidents that first drew the attention of the national AFA leadership to Dave Hann, was when after a nationally supported AFA mobilisation around the Bloody Sunday March in Manchester in Jan 1995, he as editor of Red Attitude at the time, sought to appropriate the considerable successes of anti-fascists/republicans on the day versus fascists/loyalists and bend into an entirely different narrative.

But instead of casting it in terms of Protestant/loylaist v Catholic/anti-fascist, as the Spike interview might suggest he would, he used a photo of a battered right-winger, (which would later be referenced in a News of the World article) to re-cast the clashes on the day in apolitical 'Utd v City' terms, which was regarded with astonishment at the time, though his rationale would become clearer later on.

For what it's worth Hann was not a) Irish, Catholic, or indeed a Utd fan, and the 'batterers' for want of a better term were AFA-Villa(who ran their own fanzine incidentally) fans from Brum.
 
malatesta32 said:
speaking of which!
http://afaarchive.files.wordpress.c...ss-anti_fascist-and-the-swp-by-red-action.pdf
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(from the above article)

The proponent of mass defence against the incursions of the fascists then maintain that physical force by what Trotsky termed ‘combat detachments’ (and what the SWP terms ‘squaddism’) is harmful because it divides the detachments from the masses. He answers;
'But why then are there independent attachments among the fascists who are not cut off from the reactionary masses but who arouse the courage and embolden those masses by their well organised attacks?’


with regard to the above point by Trotsky AGAINST 'Trotskyists' such as the SWP, the latter would sometimes feel a need to write an article in SW, particularly after their membership were increasingly getting turned over by the BNP early 90s. They would state something along the lines of..
'some groups argue that anti fascism is the sole preserve of self selected elites and that only they are equipped to deal with fascism - thus excluding the rest of the class from the anti fascist struggle...

before that, they would sometimes refer to the argument against 'Individual Terrorism'
(reference to bombings carried about against some aristocrats in early 20th century Russia (?..a guess here..memory ain't all that!)

There was a time when the membership (SWP) getting turned over were increasingly questioning their leadership..who responded in print by denying that such attacks had taken place. I bumped into Pat Stack and asked him about such attacks and denials; he replied, 'if they continue, then something will have to be done.'


many of the arguments in the above RA pamphlet about squaddism and the SWP are contained in a fuller article in a Red Action paper which dismantles many of the 'Trotskyist' pillars of the SWP by using Trotsky's own writings against them.
 
thanks loads for that mr theword! i shall have to digest this at leisure as i am just about digest a roast chicken for us tea!
 
Joe Reilly said:
Interestingly one of the incidents that first drew the attention of the national AFA leadership to Dave Hann, was when after a nationally supported AFA mobilisation around the Bloody Sunday March in Manchester in Jan 1995, he as editor of Red Attitude at the time, sought to appropriate the considerable successes of anti-fascists/republicans on the day versus fascists/loyalists and bend into an entirely different narrative.

But instead of casting it in terms of Protestant/loylaist v Catholic/anti-fascist, as the Spike interview might suggest he would, he used a photo of a battered right-winger, (which would later be referenced in a News of the World article) to re-cast the clashes on the day in apolitical 'Utd v City' terms, which was regarded with astonishment at the time, though his rationale would become clearer later on.

For what it's worth Hann was not a) Irish, Catholic, or indeed a Utd fan, and the 'batterers' for want of a better term were AFA-Villa(who ran their own fanzine incidentally) fans from Brum.
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Every fight you had was totally spot on??.....You never had a beef with him not having any of the said attributes when he was 'in favour' you sick fuck. Yeah and how many cunts in Rangers shirts got twatted along the way you clown. I know for a fact you dished out many an uneccessary slap in your day... the way you twist shit to your own ends is truly astonishing.....
 
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