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Beating the Fascists: The authorised history of Anti-Fascist Action

Hi - I wrote the IBWM article on Man Utd and appreciate the comments. My two main sources were the Hann/Tilzey interview with Spike Magazine and the Noonan interview with Red Attitude (both available online, both worth reading). Both talk about the links between City and the NF on the one hand and United and AFA on the other (whilst obviously making clear that it wasn't that simple, etc.). The article looks at possible reasons for this political divide, particularly Utd/AFA (the editors removed the part about City/NF - understandably). One is location (stadium near the docks). The other is a possible immigrant support base, which is more complex (and I can definitely see why people have said it's "romanticised"):

1. City's Anglican roots obviously weren't sectarian as such but as I noted in the article, sectarianism was an issue in Manchester at the time. Would Irish Catholic immigrants have been put off the idea of supporting an Anglican team, especially on with links to the Orange Order (http://www.manchesterorange.co.uk/History/st-marks-church-manchester-city-orange-order) when they could have supported a team with secular roots in the L&YR?

2. In 1902, the club decided the re-name themselves and Utd was chosen narrowly ahead of Celtic. Why was this the case? The man who some credit coming up with the name Utd was Louis Rocca, himself the son of an Italian immigrant family in Ancoats (an Irish/Italian area close to Newton Heath's ground in Clayton). He was the one who recruited fellow Catholic club member Busby as manager in 1945. That Utd were subsequently perceived as the "Catholic club" of Manchester in the 1950s isn't my assertion [Stuart Brennan, M.E.N.]. Similarly the idea of City as "loyalist" is a quote from someone writing in the Guardian.

In the article I note that Moss Side (where City moved in 1923) is an immigrant area. The editors cut out the part where I talked about City's black/mixed race fans confronting their NF base. So clearly City have lots of fans with immigrant backgrounds. But it was Utd who became more associated with militant anti-fascism. Now in the article I've reduced this to Salford docker/Irish immigrant support base which is definitely a "romanticised" version. When asked about it, Tilzey suggests Utd/Catholic vs. City/Protestant as a possible reason for Utd's AFA links. The article develops that idea and uses it as a starting point for exploring some of the history of Manchester in a way that I hope was interesting and accurate.

On a personal note, I went to Catholic schools in Kersal and Prestwich where a huge majority supported Utd. Of the handful of City fans, many were purposefully going against the grain but there did seem to be more City fans over in Blackley/Moston (though still Utd areas I would argue). Now I'm living over in Poland, where my estate is covered in "White Power"/"SS" graffiti and no-one really seems to be that bothered about it. I remember seeing NF graffiti/posters back in M25 but (apparently) it was always being challenged (sometimes violently). Over here, it seems like the far-right link is part of the whole football hooligan identity. I wanted to write about the antifascist left and its links with violence and football fan identity.

Happy to look at any "inaccuracies" in more detail (although most of them I'd dispute).
 
Red Storm said:
Are the thoughts on Ken Loach and AFA sound?
Click to expand...

There was interest expressed, including a sit down meet with 'Donal without a d' prior to the publication of BTF in about 2006 but n o follow up. Of course after his involvement with the Noonan 'story' and spin off shenanagins it is very unlikely even if he was still keen that it would ever have reciprocated at the other end.
As for the Ken Loach angle, this is very old hat, dusted down periodically by you know who for the usual self-aggrandising coat-trailing reasons for almost a decade.
 
Frances Lengel said:
Trumpets - I'm not into football, I'm not a red and I'm not a blue, can't see the appeal TBH, all excited over players legs - Not my direction. But yeah, what you're saying is self evidently right (I would've thought). Anyway, you can state your own case better than I can, but I'll tell you what gets right on my nerves - "We're man united and we do what we want" ...Fuck do I hate that chant.
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If you were into football you would understand that the whole idea behind football chants as well as geeing up your own team,is to wind your opponents up, and as chants go, that one works a treat, even annoying non football fans.
 
morecambe_and_wise_in_bed.jpg
 
Tommo84 said:
Hi - I wrote the IBWM article on Man Utd and appreciate the comments. My two main sources were the Hann/Tilzey interview with Spike Magazine and the Noonan interview with Red Attitude (both available online, both worth reading). Both talk about the links between City and the NF on the one hand and United and AFA on the other (whilst obviously making clear that it wasn't that simple, etc.). The article looks at possible reasons for this political divide, particularly Utd/AFA (the editors removed the part about City/NF - understandably). One is location (stadium near the docks). The other is a possible immigrant support base, which is more complex (and I can definitely see why people have said it's "romanticised"):

1. City's Anglican roots obviously weren't sectarian as such but as I noted in the article, sectarianism was an issue in Manchester at the time. Would Irish Catholic immigrants have been put off the idea of supporting an Anglican team, especially on with links to the Orange Order (http://www.manchesterorange.co.uk/History/st-marks-church-manchester-city-orange-order) when they could have supported a team with secular roots in the L&YR?

2. In 1902, the club decided the re-name themselves and Utd was chosen narrowly ahead of Celtic. Why was this the case? The man who some credit coming up with the name Utd was Louis Rocca, himself the son of an Italian immigrant family in Ancoats (an Irish/Italian area close to Newton Heath's ground in Clayton). He was the one who recruited fellow Catholic club member Busby as manager in 1945. That Utd were subsequently perceived as the "Catholic club" of Manchester in the 1950s isn't my assertion [Stuart Brennan, M.E.N.]. Similarly the idea of City as "loyalist" is a quote from someone writing in the Guardian.

In the article I note that Moss Side (where City moved in 1923) is an immigrant area. The editors cut out the part where I talked about City's black/mixed race fans confronting their NF base. So clearly City have lots of fans with immigrant backgrounds. But it was Utd who became more associated with militant anti-fascism. Now in the article I've reduced this to Salford docker/Irish immigrant support base which is definitely a "romanticised" version. When asked about it, Tilzey suggests Utd/Catholic vs. City/Protestant as a possible reason for Utd's AFA links. The article develops that idea and uses it as a starting point for exploring some of the history of Manchester in a way that I hope was interesting and accurate.

On a personal note, I went to Catholic schools in Kersal and Prestwich where a huge majority supported Utd. Of the handful of City fans, many were purposefully going against the grain but there did seem to be more City fans over in Blackley/Moston (though still Utd areas I would argue). Now I'm living over in Poland, where my estate is covered in "White Power"/"SS" graffiti and no-one really seems to be that bothered about it. I remember seeing NF graffiti/posters back in M25 but (apparently) it was always being challenged (sometimes violently). Over here, it seems like the far-right link is part of the whole football hooligan identity. I wanted to write about the antifascist left and its links with violence and football fan identity.

Happy to look at any "inaccuracies" in more detail (although most of them I'd dispute).
Click to expand...


The thing is that these links you speak of are not links between the respective clubs and those organisations, or even between most or many fans and those organisations, but between small sub-groups of fans and those organisations. And the way it's put obscures the obvious fact that many United fans would have sympathised (at a gut level) with the basic aims of the racists and fascists (as would many City fans), and many City fans the aims of their opponents (as would many United fans).

Those Orange Order links you speak of are not with the club as such but with the church that was instrumental in its formation, and the linked article ignores the fact that the Orange Order was a relatively small organisation in Manchester and one that the vast majority of those Anna Connell's meetings to set up the club were aimed at would obviously have had no links to, and nor would the vast majority of those running, playing for and supporting the club in subsequent years. Politically, there was no difference between City and United fans: the working class majority would have been Labour/trade union leaning, and both clubs had middle class fans in the suburbs who would have been Liberals and Tories (as would, no doubt, the businessmen controlling both clubs.) All of this is reflected in the voting patterns of those areas traditionally perceived as being City or United. Also ignored in your article are the aims of those meetings organised by Anna Connell, which, as is well-documented, were loosely progressive, concerned as they were in alleviating the tendency towards wasted lives and combating futile gang warfare between working class youths in deeply impoverished working class areas. Also well-documented is the fact that the aim of putting Manchester in the name of the club when Ardwick FC became MCFC in 1894, at a time when no club carried the name of the city, was to unite all Mancunians regardless of differences. Both clubs co-operated down the years, most famously with United's sharing of Maine Road after WW2, and came together to prevent the growth of the rising Manchester Central FC in the early 1930s-seen at the time as a particular threat to United, who were in a downward spiral and on the verge of bankruptcy. Both sets of fans have never had a problem mixing together at all levels of working and social life, probably much to the chagrin of any tiny minorities who would have preferred that not to be the case.

I can remember when United were perceived, not totally accurately, as the Catholic club as late as the mid-1970s, but if this was as a result of Busby and club policy at the time, as you imply, it has to be remembered (as you do acknowledge) that Busby was a long-time City player and that Catholics were never excluded or discriminated against at any level of the club (I know you don't directly state that they were but it would be an easy assumption to make from the tone of your article and your above post.) As far as I know, Busby always had a lot of time for his old club. A large minority of Catholics always favoured City (your article does acknowledge that this may certainly have been the case in South Manchester.) Also, Rocca may have been from Ancoats (I'm from neighboring Miles Platting), but many of the Italian immigrants in that area traditionally favoured City. And again, as I say above, the association of United with militant anti-fascism comes down to the football preferences of the activists involved within the city. Anybody growing up in working class Manchester would have to acknowledge that, on the whole, attitudes towards race and immigration were no different among the fans of both clubs. Both fanbases, reflecting working class Manchester itself and surrounding areas, had plenty of racists and some active anti-racists, and the vast majority, like the working class as a whole, had no time for the extremes of right or left. Most City and United fans would have been, as I said in the earlier post, politically passive Labour voters.

To make a more pedantic point, neither Kersal nor Prestwich are actually part of the city of Manchester, as you will know.
 
Deareg said:
If you were into football you would understand that the whole idea behind football chants as well as geeing up your own team,is to wind your opponents up, and as chants go, that one works a treat, even annoying non football fans.
Click to expand...

Yeah but compare "We're man united and we do what we want" with "We're not really here" and there can only be one winner - Revenge of the tashmen right enough.
 
You've said yourself that there was a perception as late as the 1970s that United were a "Catholic" team, i.e. one with a large immigrant support base. We've both identified City as also having a large immigrant support base but unlike United they they attracted this small far right sub-group of fans alongside. Perhaps this was because United were perceived (whether accurately or not) as a Catholic team. The fact that the Manchester branch of the Orange Order talk about City's Anglican roots shows that they see it as part of their narrative in the same way that some antifascists (regardless of levels of involvement) see their Irish Catholic background/Utd support as part of theirs (as you can see in the sources I've used). I suppose if I was writing the article again I would have to try and make this narratives/identity aspect a bit clearer. The word "romanticised" was used to describe the piece and I think that's fair enough. I probably could have been a bit more critically self-aware etc. but then IBWM are probably more interested in the romance rather than the reality. The editors didn't change much from my original submission, but the part they took out did talk about racism at Old Trafford, which you've alluded to (I think mainly because it also referred to the NF subgroup amongst the City fans). Anyway I really enjoyed reading your comments, I think it lends some balance to the article and I definitely take on board the criticism. Off to watch Andy Murray now, a break up in the fifth set. Just out of interest, I've heard people describe Clayton as a "red" area - any truth in this?
 
Tommo84 said:
You've said yourself that there was a perception as late as the 1970s that United were a "Catholic" team, i.e. one with a large immigrant support base. We've both identified City as also having a large immigrant support base but unlike United they they attracted this small far right sub-group of fans alongside. Perhaps this was because United were perceived (whether accurately or not) as a Catholic team. The fact that the Manchester branch of the Orange Order talk about City's Anglican roots shows that they see it as part of their narrative in the same way that some antifascists (regardless of levels of involvement) see their Irish Catholic background/Utd support as part of theirs (as you can see in the sources I've used). I suppose if I was writing the article again I would have to try and make this narratives/identity aspect a bit clearer. The word "romanticised" was used to describe the piece and I think that's fair enough. I probably could have been a bit more critically self-aware etc. but then IBWM are probably more interested in the romance rather than the reality. The editors didn't change much from my original submission, but the part they took out did talk about racism at Old Trafford, which you've alluded to (I think mainly because it also referred to the NF subgroup amongst the City fans). Anyway I really enjoyed reading your comments, I think it lends some balance to the article and I definitely take on board the criticism. Off to watch Andy Murray now, a break up in the fifth set. Just out of interest, I've heard people describe Clayton as a "red" area - any truth in this?
Click to expand...




Again we have this idea that the club 'attracted' this small far-right sub-group. No, the club did not. A football club has no control over the opinions and actions of its supporters. City as a club did absolutely nothing to attract the, at most, few dozen active racists and fascists around in the late '70s and early 80's, any more than almost any other club who had similar among their fans did, nor any more than MUFC actively solicited for AFA. Manchester is not Glasgow; City are not Rangers and United are not Celtic, no matter how much some tiny minorities among their fans might like them to be. Nor did City do anything, in earlier times, to encourage the Orange Order. What the Orange Order chooses to say on the matter has nothing to do with either the club or the overwhelming majority of its fans. Any organisation with loose Anglican roots could be claimed as part of the Orange narrative in the same way, regardless of the opinions and outlook of most (or even any) of those traditionally associated with it. The most you could say is that because of United's not entirely accurate reputation as 'the Catholic club', the far right targeted City fans for recruitment with an appeal to loyalism (and were, of course, almost entirely unsuccessful, just like they were unsuccessful in most things they attempted.) Of course, you always got handfuls of people who tried to play up to these inaccurate images: United fans who tried to make out that the club itself had Republican connections (and I don't necessarily mean political activists here) and City fans (actually often people who had no solid background as City fans) who tried to be their mirror image-but that's all they were: mere handfuls. By the way, the Manchester Catholics, no matter whether they chose United or City, like Catholics in most English towns and cities, could in no real sense be describe as immigrants for most of the 20th century. They were English, born-and-bred Mancunians, most of them from Irish backgrounds. And as I said, anybody who knows Manchester well would admit that probably a majority of both sets of fans, regardless of background, were moderate Labour voters, as casually racist as most politically passive Labour voters anywhere have been, with no more time for the extremes of either left or right than most people, and conventional views on the war in the north of Ireland. Etc. Both clubs could also count plenty of non-white immigrants and their descendents among their fanbases. All the rest is, as we both seem to agree, almost completely romanticised. In fact, I'd bet that the vast majority of the current fanbases of both clubs would have no idea what we're talking about here. And what's more-they wouldn't want to know.

Clayton; who knows? Changing demographics have a lot to do with football loyalties in any city now, and I left Manchester 12 years ago although I still go back frequently.
 
im sure this is the exception at such an illustrious soccer team as Man U. you dont get that at cricket!
 

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finally bought the book but ordered it a bit late n had left the UK by the time it arrived. waiting for me though so should be able to get it posted.

just wondering if there's any plans for an ebook version in the future? been published by Freedom but do they own the possible rights to any electronic version? might be good for those interested in the topic n looking to read the book in forrin' countries..
 
A small point, but an important one at that. In the late 70's, the NF activists (a right motley crew) at Leeds United's ground, Elland Road, weren't even football fans. They never went to any of the games. Whereas, the anti-fascists who opposed them did have Leeds supporters in their ranks and who did go to Leeds matches.
 
Riklet said:
finally bought the book but ordered it a bit late n had left the UK by the time it arrived. waiting for me though so should be able to get it posted.

just wondering if there's any plans for an ebook version in the future? been published by Freedom but do they own the possible rights to any electronic version? might be good for those interested in the topic n looking to read the book in forrin' countries..
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ebook version is being looked into as a self publishing thing, not through Freedom though (this was looked at at the outset but for various reasons didn't get progressed)

we (IWCA) get a fair lot of foreign purchases of the book as it is, although the postage costs of it given the weight of the thing makes it fairly expensive, so the ebook route would open up more possibilities for foreign distribution
 
Tommo84 said:
You've said yourself that there was a perception as late as the 1970s that United were a "Catholic" team, i.e. one with a large immigrant support base. We've both identified City as also having a large immigrant support base but unlike United they they attracted this small far right sub-group of fans alongside. Perhaps this was because United were perceived (whether accurately or not) as a Catholic team. The fact that the Manchester branch of the Orange Order talk about City's Anglican roots shows that they see it as part of their narrative in the same way that some antifascists (regardless of levels of involvement) see their Irish Catholic background/Utd support as part of theirs (as you can see in the sources I've used). I suppose if I was writing the article again I would have to try and make this narratives/identity aspect a bit clearer. The word "romanticised" was used to describe the piece and I think that's fair enough. I probably could have been a bit more critically self-aware etc. but then IBWM are probably more interested in the romance rather than the reality. The editors didn't change much from my original submission, but the part they took out did talk about racism at Old Trafford, which you've alluded to (I think mainly because it also referred to the NF subgroup amongst the City fans). Anyway I really enjoyed reading your comments, I think it lends some balance to the article and I definitely take on board the criticism. Off to watch Andy Murray now, a break up in the fifth set. Just out of interest, I've heard people describe Clayton as a "red" area - any truth in this?
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I'm not sure if Clayton's a red area in the manner of somewhere like Collyhurst. I'd say there's a lot of blues in East Manchester. Best bit of graffiti ever was on a gable end in Clayton though, in big white paint just said GOD is from Clayton.
 
No-one's saying that either the clubs or a majority or even a big minority of supporters had ties with groups either sides of the political divide. Small minority as it is/was (however small), United had an anti-fascist fanzine and a book was written by/about antifascists, both of which claimed this political divide as part of their narrative to whatever extent and with whatever caveats were involved. That's what the article was about. I was looking for possible reasons why this might be the case.

Of course neither club consciously tried to 'attract' anyone from any political background. But to say that people might have been attracted to either side for whatever reason isn't the same thing. Agree with most of your other points, passive Labour voters etc. but you seem to be saying that United's well-organised antifascist support base (however big/small) just came about by itself in a completely random way. All I'm saying is that it might be historically rooted, on however big or small a scale.

Manchester Irish weren't all immigrants as such but they came from immigrant backgrounds and may have been more amenable to the message of antifascism. Obviously each individual case is different and you can't make sweeping generalisations but this is what's implied in my two main sources (the Spike interview and the issue of Red Attitude). The easiest answer to the question is that there are no easy answers.

One thing that comes over very strong in the book is that you're Reds in both senses
of the word. By your account Manchester United was always heavily anti-fascist in
character, yet Manchester City was far more of a hotbed of NF support. Why is that?
ST: There really is no clear answer to that. Historically there was the old United-Catholic
City-Protestant thing, and I think there's an element of that.
And yet City actually have more black fans than United too…
ST: I know; it's weird. I do think a lot of it is just down to coincidence and can’t be
explained. Groups of lads coming from certain areas, hanging around together,
supporting the same team. Some just supported the same politics too, including far-right
politics.
It's not clear cut at all. I’ve certainly heard a fair amount of racist shite at United over the
years, we just always managed to isolate them. We helped do that through fanzines we
wrote for a while. It was honest, 90% football and 10% politics but it worked. At the
same time, City has had its anti-Nazis who've given us support.
One more thing is that City has always been a big England supporting team and United
hasn’t, once again because of Irish ancestry.
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(http://www.spikemagazine.com/pdfdocuments/spikemagazinecom_noretreatinterview.pdf)
 
Tommo84 said:
No-one's saying that either the clubs or a majority or even a big minority of supporters had ties with groups either sides of the political divide. Small minority as it is/was (however small), United had an anti-fascist fanzine and a book was written by/about antifascists, both of which claimed this political divide as part of their narrative to whatever extent and with whatever caveats were involved. That's what the article was about. I was looking for possible reasons why this might be the case.

Of course neither club consciously tried to 'attract' anyone from any political background. But to say that people might have been attracted to either side for whatever reason isn't the same thing. Agree with most of your other points, passive Labour voters etc. but you seem to be saying that United's well-organised antifascist support base (however big/small) just came about by itself in a completely random way. All I'm saying is that it might be historically rooted, on however big or small a scale.

Manchester Irish weren't all immigrants as such but they came from immigrant backgrounds and may have been more amenable to the message of antifascism. Obviously each individual case is different and you can't make sweeping generalisations but this is what's implied in my two main sources (the Spike interview and the issue of Red Attitude). The easiest answer to the question is that there are no easy answers.



(http://www.spikemagazine.com/pdfdocuments/spikemagazinecom_noretreatinterview.pdf)
Click to expand...


Historically rooted how? Manchester's Catholics were/are not generally anti-fascist or anti-racist regardless of which club they favoured (as with anybody else, the picture is mixed), and whatever 'well-organised anti-fascist support base' that did exist at United came about, as far as I can see, because the small, politically conscious group that was behind it happened to be United fans. One of the authors of the book to which you refer did not come from Manchester. Was he of Irish extraction? I don't know.

Manchester's Catholics may come from immigrant backgrounds but are, in the main, not actually immigrants and haven't been for some time-their experience is the same as that of other long-settled white Mancunians, and being from that background myself, I've never noticed that they are any more 'amenable' to 'the message of anti-fascism' than anybody else. Some of the worse racists I've met are from Irish backgrounds. The BNP seems to have no shortage of them.
 
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