BBC announced collapse of WT7 before it happened!
- Thread starter Jazzz
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Agreed that I also believe that AQ carried out the attacks. I still find it dificult to believe that the USG was able to 'seed' the idea with AQ. They would have no control over the targets, techniques used. There's not much to gain if you get killed in the attack!fela fan said:
8den
No I'm pretty sure that was 8ball...
MikeMcc said:
Two CIA wandered around Pakistan and Afganistan for most of the 90s have loud conversations in bars they'd say;
"Gosh Jeff whats the worst thing imaginable?"
"Hmmmm tough question, but speaking as an american, I'd think I'd find four groups of terrorists hijacking airplanes in the US and flying them into landmarks."
"Gee Steve you're right, that would be the pits, what landmarks?"
"Hmmm, off the top of my head, the twin towers the pentagon, and oh somewhere else, like the capital, or something."
MikeMcc said:
Have you read 'blowback'??
Incidentally, the link i'm giving here is from a fantastic website. Try it out for half an hour. It gathers together stuff from some pretty preeminent writers from around the globe.
http://www.thirdworldtraveler.com/Blowback_CJohnson/Blowback_CJohnson.html
I can understand that many events (including 9/11) occur as a consequence of American actions, but it hardly acts as evidence towards a MIHOP conspiracy of seeding a plan of attack in the AQ leadership. I personally think that we should give them the credit for being able to think up the plan on their own.fela fan said:
Personally I believe the biggest questions lie in how was the intelligence that was discovered not tied together and dealt with. While understandable that bureaucratic inertia led to mistakes in the response, are the lessons that have been learnt being implemented?
MikeMcc said:
Yes, you can give credit to al q for thinking up the plan on their own.
Yes, you can also say that americans are just as capable of killing their own as other countries are. Both belong to conjecture.
Now, as for intelligence not being tied together, well mate, it fucking beggars belief. You count the number of countries warning of attacks to come from this timeline. It's one of the shorter ones.
http://www.cooperativeresearch.org/...ing_signs:_specific_cases=foreignIntelligence
With regards to conjecture, well, that's why I said that I believe that it was so rather than trying to state it as a fact.fela fan said:
Intelligence failures on this scale have certainly happened before, the rise of the Nazi regime and it's re-militarisation was ignored by the UKG for a long time despite warnings, there was intelligence warning of the Pearl Harbour attack, Barbarossa, the Battle of the Bulge and that an SS panzer was in the Arnhem area prior to Operation Market Garden's launch.
I am yet to be convinced of anything other than a series of cock-ups and lack of co-ordination. LIHBA rather than LIHOP, and certainly not MIHOP. The latter two are in the realms of Robert Ludlam novels, they require too much to happen correctly for them to be credible alternatives to LIHBA.
One thing that we are seeing more of is the fabrication of intelligence to fit agendas, such as the WMD dossier.
MikeMcc said:
Some will say that it wasn't intelligence failure over the nazis, just appeasement...
Some will say that it wasn't intelligence failure over pearl harbour, rather a case of ignoring it coz the attack would suit america...
If you look at the timelines on cooperativeresearch.org you'll see it has nothing to do with fabrication of intelligence, it is simply a collection of reports from mainstream media about warnings the USG, CIA, FBI, FAA were getting.
Take yer head out of the sand for ten minutes mate and just read about the intelligence that the US were getting. All you're doing is quoting your considered opinion about novels and the like.
The bond books were novels, but no doubt they painted a fair reflection of the actions of the british secret services...
editor said:
There was no need of hindsight. It was all being predicted, yet for some astonishing reason those in the relevant positions of power ignored it all. Reams and reams and reams of it all pointing towards one thing.
Incidentally, for the benefit of newer urban members, the last time i got anywhere past one or two posts linking to cooperativeresearch.org you simply wiped the thread from existence. It never even made the bin.
Funny, coz it answers one of your major calls that we link to mainstream media stuff instead of dodgy internet sites.
Do you have a link for that claim that it was gutted. I was led to believe that it was one of the major differences for WTC6 was that it wasn't severely damaged by fire despite being severely damaged by impacting debris (and it was considerably lower than WTC7).Jazzz said:
kyser_soze
Hawking's Angry Eyebrow
On the CIA 'seeding' Al-Q...anyone know if OBL is a Clancey fan? I think he's credited with being the first person to write down in fiction the idea of a terrorist (in this case a deranged Japanese student) hijacking a plane and flying it into a building (altho I think in the story it was a 747 into the Sear's Tower), so the idea was out there from about 1995 onwards. Plus is someone saying that a man with OBLs experience of the US is SO unimaginative that he couldn't come up with the idea himself? Or that Al-Q never had brain-storming sessions?
OBL - Hmmm, we need to do something new and different, but classical as well
Henchman 1: hijack a plane and fly it to Afghanistan then release the infidels onto the plains and let them make their way to Kabul. Allah be praised!
Henchman 2: Drive a fuel tanker into the base of a skyscraper and detonate it. The carnage will be terrible. Allah be praised!
OBL - *thinking*..hmmm...plane...fuel...tall building...HEY! Why don't we hijack planes just after they've taken off so they're full of fuel and THEN fly them into some symbolic buildings!
ALL - ALLAH BE PRAISED!!!
OK, slightly flippant, but OBL and his cohorts manged, throughout the 1990s, to oversee an expansion strategy that saw groups of extreme Islamists take power or significantly impact on the governance of Turkey, Egypt and several other nations around the Horn Of Africa. There is another country that has indulged in a similar strategy to expand it's sphere of influence and attempt to ensure friendly government - the US.
So these guys in a cave were able to strategise a long term campaign, across about 5 or 6 theatres, that was initially quite successful until Clinton started to back anti-Islamist governments and groups that reversed many of the gains (it's also one of the myriad reasons Sudan is completely fucked at the moment).
Arguably 9/11 was actually a revenge attack because at the time Al-Q was dying on it's feet from these losses and it would have either been a swansong or a 'new begining' depending on how the US responded - rather typically it was something of both - the NATO invasion of Afghanistan was initially successful but never followed up on which fulfills the swansong bit, while it was certainly a new begining for Iran's own ambitions (opposed to Al-Q) following the USUK invasion of Iraq (I ignore Israel/Palestine since it's only ever a beating stick of convenience for Iran and co)...plus of course the Taliban are now resurgent in Afghanistan, altho again, they are beatable if NATO gets it act together.
Don't assume that because they were fanatical that they weren't also capable of subtle and in-depth military thinking - Islam has a fine military history with lots to draw on...and of course they were carrying out the will of God...
OBL - Hmmm, we need to do something new and different, but classical as well
Henchman 1: hijack a plane and fly it to Afghanistan then release the infidels onto the plains and let them make their way to Kabul. Allah be praised!
Henchman 2: Drive a fuel tanker into the base of a skyscraper and detonate it. The carnage will be terrible. Allah be praised!
OBL - *thinking*..hmmm...plane...fuel...tall building...HEY! Why don't we hijack planes just after they've taken off so they're full of fuel and THEN fly them into some symbolic buildings!
ALL - ALLAH BE PRAISED!!!
OK, slightly flippant, but OBL and his cohorts manged, throughout the 1990s, to oversee an expansion strategy that saw groups of extreme Islamists take power or significantly impact on the governance of Turkey, Egypt and several other nations around the Horn Of Africa. There is another country that has indulged in a similar strategy to expand it's sphere of influence and attempt to ensure friendly government - the US.
So these guys in a cave were able to strategise a long term campaign, across about 5 or 6 theatres, that was initially quite successful until Clinton started to back anti-Islamist governments and groups that reversed many of the gains (it's also one of the myriad reasons Sudan is completely fucked at the moment).
Arguably 9/11 was actually a revenge attack because at the time Al-Q was dying on it's feet from these losses and it would have either been a swansong or a 'new begining' depending on how the US responded - rather typically it was something of both - the NATO invasion of Afghanistan was initially successful but never followed up on which fulfills the swansong bit, while it was certainly a new begining for Iran's own ambitions (opposed to Al-Q) following the USUK invasion of Iraq (I ignore Israel/Palestine since it's only ever a beating stick of convenience for Iran and co)...plus of course the Taliban are now resurgent in Afghanistan, altho again, they are beatable if NATO gets it act together.
Don't assume that because they were fanatical that they weren't also capable of subtle and in-depth military thinking - Islam has a fine military history with lots to draw on...and of course they were carrying out the will of God...
The point is that it wasn't the ONLY thing being predicted. It is easy now to look back, knowing which the "real" threat was and see it all there - exactly the same happened with 7 July bombings in London.fela fan said:
Before you could conclude the threat was "obvious" you would need to know how big the haystack was the needles were buried in ...
Looking at the co-operative research website I've managed to wade through half of the first page so far (I do wish they would repeat the same points, it would make it far more readable). My initial impressions are:
There was a stupid amount of inter-agency rivalry especially from the CIA and NSA. Details that were known weren't passed on or, if they were, only partial details were forwarded.
There are lots of references to the neighbours viewpoints, but none of the issues were raised prior to 9/11.
Visa records weren't cross-checked until post 9/11.
Watchlist procedures weren't enforced and even then the watchlist wasn't checked until a person had already entered the country!
So far I haven't seen anything other than egos and stupid mistakes.
Page in question
There was a stupid amount of inter-agency rivalry especially from the CIA and NSA. Details that were known weren't passed on or, if they were, only partial details were forwarded.
There are lots of references to the neighbours viewpoints, but none of the issues were raised prior to 9/11.
Visa records weren't cross-checked until post 9/11.
Watchlist procedures weren't enforced and even then the watchlist wasn't checked until a person had already entered the country!
So far I haven't seen anything other than egos and stupid mistakes.
Page in question
Augie March
blahem
fela fan said:
So the conspiracy theorists out there are actually helping the USG/CIA/Lizards (delete as aplicable) in covering up the truth by spouting their evidence-free theories and then having them rubbished, thus covering up what actually happened?
I can only conclude that all the CT'ers must be part of the conspiracy too! I have no actual evidence to support this theory but I have absolute faith that they're involved and I'm right...
Hang on a sec... if someone then rubbishes my above theory, does that mean I'm in on it too?
Surely the best solution for us all now, is to presume everyone to be part of the conspiracy until they can be dis-proven to be otherwise.
editor said:
Well, you could of course read it all for yourself.
But yes, the intelligence basically was the same from various countries: a big terrorist attack was being planned against the US on US soil, and/or UK. There were different side details from the various sources, but anyone listening to the general picture would have known that the US was going to be attacked. And plenty knew where and when.
But no, those responsible appeared to suffer from intelligence-fatigue. So i've heard it postulated on these forums anyhow.
kyser_soze said:
Yes, you've said this before, raising it as a racism angle.
By the same token, don't you assume that elements of the US elites are incapable of killing their fellow citizens in pursuance of their hegemony and power games.
My take on what happened actually includes both of these.
detective-boy said:
They weren't needles in a haystack, they were big fuck-off cannons in a bathroom.
The US is the preeminent superpower. It has enemies that it's identified. It has various agencies and people invested with the responsibility to defend its shores. It is the biggest military complex of all time.
Their own intelligence, together with that of a dozen or two countries was almost shouting that an attack was on its way. The details were fine enough to easily prevent the attacks.
Like i often say, it therefore was staggering levels of incompetence across various agencies and individuals, all whose very job it is to deal with that intelligence, or certain people deliberately ignored the intelligence.
And if you read the timelines on that website i've been referring to you'll see categorically that field agents were getting frustrated at just that: being ignored by their bosses.
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