Are we really going to sit by while they destroy the NHS?

[free spirit]

Thats what I mean though; if one is ideologically committed to keeping finances under control then you wouldnt use PFI because (a) it is almost always more expensive than either government expenditure or (especially in the current climate) government borrowing, and (b) it doesnt keep costs off the balance sheet in any real way. If anyone is ideologically committed to PFI despite all of that, it leads one inevitably back to them preferring it "because they are stupid, quite frankly".

They're ideologically wedded the the appearance of having the finances under control, rather than the reality of the situation in the longer term.

If they can cause major budget headaches for the successors then that's all to the good if it potentially shows them in a better light in comparison.

There's currently over £10 billion going to service the existing PFI contracts each year. That's a significant drain on public funds.

 

[J Ed]

a phrase now rendered unusable by it's appropriation by Blair for his bizarre mixture of Statist authoritarianism, bread and circuses and crony capitalism ....

You are defending PFI and using the term 'crony capitalism' as an insult. You are a very confused joke, I bet you supported the bank bailouts too.

 

[FridgeMagnet]

Thats what I mean though; if one is ideologically committed to keeping finances under control then you wouldnt use PFI because (a) it is almost always more expensive than either government expenditure or (especially in the current climate) government borrowing, and (b) it doesnt keep costs off the balance sheet in any real way. If anyone is ideologically committed to PFI despite all of that, it leads one inevitably back to them preferring it "because they are stupid, quite frankly".

I think there was a serious ideological commitment to PFI under NL certainly, along with a lot of other "market liberalisation" and, simplistically, "private is best" stuff; it isn't like it didn't look like a terrible deal at the time financially after all.

 

[J Ed]

I think there was a serious ideological commitment to PFI under NL certainly, along with a lot of other "market liberalisation" and, simplistically, "private is best" stuff; it isn't like it didn't look like a terrible deal at the time financially after all.

Which makes zippy's outbursts even more confusing

 

[FridgeMagnet]

Thinking more about what I mean to say, it's not even as straightforward as a belief in the free market or any of that sort of thing. There were people around who really did believe in the whole "public private partnership" concept, that public services would be much better off with "private sector rigour" and outsourcing but could remain public services, authentic Third Way believers.

I worked for a company that provided services to the NHS for a while in the 00s (admittedly things that the NHS simply couldn't do then, though IMO it _should_ have and could have been able to, but that's another story) and used to come across these people in management positions in PCTs sometimes. They were proper zealots.

That isn't to say there wasn't also cynical public purse profiteering and directorship hunting going on of course.

 

[zippyRN]

You are defending PFI and using the term 'crony capitalism' as an insult. You are a very confused joke, I bet you supported the bank bailouts too.

what PFI delivers , when you strip the bile and mistruths out of the Left's reporting of it is

- New facilities of a substantially higher quality - in the case of hospitals the PFI refurbs / new builds were to the new accomodation standards os 50 % single ensuite rooms, the 50 % in bays were 4 bedded bays not 6 or 8 and the toilet and showere were accessed from the bay not shared facilities across ( and down ) corridors , built to modern energey efficiency standard and to current buidling regs and fire standards ( unlike a lot of ww2 to 1990s stuff built under 'crown exemptions' and now requiring substantial corrective work )

- facilities managmeent contracts with teeth - unlike the facilities management and building services behaviours that typified NHS managed services during the same period

there is a lot of spin over the PFI payments and what they cover or don't cover - plus where the risks of none -compliance lay

 

[J Ed]

what PFI delivers , when you strip the bile and mistruths out of the Left's reporting of it

Who is 'the left'? Those radical Marxists in the Tory Party via the Telegraph?

I'm not going to bother debating PFI with you because it is a waste of time, no one really disputes its failures other than wingnuts and those who benefit from it financially.

What I wanted from you is a definition of 'crony capitalism'.

 

[nino_savatte]

Which makes zippy's outbursts even more confusing

He's more Bungle than Zippy.

 

[zippyRN]

What I wanted from you is a definition of 'crony capitalism'.

in the case of Blair

i'm going to get rid of GM status for schools, but you can have the freedoms back as long as you bring in a an ideologically approved corporate parnter ...

and the Human rights act was, is and remains driven by a want to keep his and his missus mates in profitable practice ...

 

[Dogsauce]

Is this Richard Littlejohn or something?

 

[brogdale]

Is this Richard Littlejohn or something?

more Liddle than Littlejohn?

 

[seventh bullet]

'Hold the country to ransom' made an appearance.

 

[Dogsauce]

Does anyone have a right wing trope bingo card? I spotted 'human rights'.

 

[brogdale]

11 trusts now declaring "major" or "significant" incidents...and Cunt twerts this cobblers..

 

[nino_savatte]

Rhyming-Slang loves his 'facts' doesn't he?

 

[JTG]

11 trusts now declaring "major" or "significant" incidents.

Oh there's far more than that, those are just the ones the Graun has found out about.

Every day of my working life has been massively affected by this for weeks now. It's exhausting

 

[JTG]

As for Hunt: yeah, far more people in A&E and a bed shortage all over. This is what happens when community services get cut, A&E is the first port of call for many because there isn't anything else. Disingenuous twat.

Thanks for praising the staff though. Can I have his wage please?

 

[Dogsauce]

With all the chaos in casualty on the news, the worrying thing is that we haven't had a serious sustained period of cold weather this winter yet, which is usually what gets blamed for overloading A&E, when there's a sudden influx of people with broken wrists etc after slipping on ice (as well as hypothermic pensioners). Really hope we don't get a sudden cold snap, it'd really fuck things up.

Despite Hunt's glib excuses, the vermin actually want things like this so they can point out that 'the system is broken' and use it as the reason for bringing in further changes towards the eventual break-up of the service. Scum.

 

[two sheds]

Yep, from Sell Off (good video on what's happening in the NHS with Peter Bach interviewing a load of doctors about privatization, including Allyson Pollock, Jackie Davis and Clive Peedell):

British Rail was run down for some years systematically before the privatisation, and in fact that is a standard privatisation strategy – it makes it easier. The expert on this is Oliver Letwin MP and he has written a nice book called ‘Privatising the World’ in 1988, and in that he sets out a number of important tactics for governments who are trying to privatise public services against the wishes of their population. And among them there are a couple of key steps and one is to restrict the budget so that public service gets worse and worse and worse and then privatisation can be represented as a step up which of course in practice generally it is not, but if you make the public service bad enough people will perceive it that way. So it’s a deliberate policy.

 

[coley]

A couple of points, does anyone else on here have an GPs out hour of hours service that consistently has a waiting time of six hours? Given the 4 hour AE target this comes across as a deliberate attempt to foist people needing attention into AE.
Would anyone have any objection to reporters repeatedly reporting the problem being largely down to the ageing population being crossbowed in the face?

 

[danny la rouge]

Yep, from Sell Off (good video on what's happening in the NHS with Peter Bach interviewing a load of doctors about privatization, including Allyson Pollock, Jackie Davis and Clive Peedell):

Re your quote: that's exactly what they're doing. Which is why a strong public defence of both the NHS and the principle of universality is required. When someone does down the NHS, we need to uphold its principles, or when headlines outline problems, we need to make sure we respond that these problems are a result of deliberate policy.

Privatisation is only inevitable if we let them win the propaganda war.

 

[Bahnhof Strasse]

Hunt's my MP. We're all in this together, just an ordinary lad; elder son of Admiral Hunt, Charterhouse, Magdalen (PPE, obvs), straight in to management consultancy (how can you do this with no experience of anything? Ah, family connections...), when that went wrong he ran off to Japan TEFL, came home, numerous failed business ventures, then he founds a PR company and immediately gets clients such as BT.

So just an ordinary lad done good through hard work etc.

If teachers hated Gove, NHS staff should be giving Hunt a practical demonstration of what it's like to wait 12 hours to have your broken legs seen to.

 

[two sheds]

I should have put up link for the Sell Off video (although I think I linked to it before):
()

Really worth watching.

Also KONP (Keep Our NHS Public) which I've been meaning to join and will do now.

 

[ViolentPanda]

A couple of points, does anyone else on here have an GPs out hour of hours service that consistently has a waiting time of six hours? Given the 4 hour AE target this comes across as a deliberate attempt to foist people needing attention into AE.
Would anyone have any objection to reporters repeatedly reporting the problem being largely down to the ageing population being crossbowed in the face?

From what was said on a R4 programme last week, 6 hours is the standard.
And the whole "ageing population" schtick is way too simplified. The real fact is that in the last 20 years we've found treatments for certain previously-fatal illnesses and cancers that are allowing people to live longer. This would happen in any population, ageing or otherwise. Add in the fact that many of those living longer will still have health conditions as a consequence of their treatment, and that's a rather large "bump" in terms of need.

 

[FiFi]

From what was said on a R4 programme last week, 6 hours is the standard.
And the whole "ageing population" schtick is way too simplified. The real fact is that in the last 20 years we've found treatments for certain previously-fatal illnesses and cancers that are allowing people to live longer. This would happen in any population, ageing or otherwise. Add in the fact that many of those living longer will still have health conditions as a consequence of their treatment, and that's a rather large "bump" in terms of need.

I agree with this, and would add that many people who have chronic illness require treatment outside of hospital and the loss of many District Nurse posts over the past few years is making this difficult to access

 

[JTG]

We discharged somebody home the other day - got a call from the crew to say there was no way the patient was mobile enough to be left safely (lay out of home was unsuitable). No carers, community nurses etc available, no family - back to hospital. Another patient last week wasn't going to be accepted by the care home initially as they said they were too unwell to be looked after there. Had to act as go-between with the hospital and care home to get them to talk to each other and sort it out while we were left holding the patient.

 

[brogdale]

We discharged somebody home the other day - got a call from the crew to say there was no way the patient was mobile enough to be left safely (lay out of home was unsuitable). No carers, community nurses etc available, no family - back to hospital. Another patient last week wasn't going to be accepted by the care home initially as they said they were too unwell to be looked after there. Had to act as go-between with the hospital and care home to get them to talk to each other and sort it out while we were left holding the patient.

Don't these oldsters understand that the market will find a solution?

 

[Roadkill]

Circle are trying to walk away from the contract to run Hitchingbrooke Hospital, blaming funding cuts and A&E demand. Presumably they'll get a sympathetic hearing from government and right-wing press, whereas when the public sector warn about the impact of funding cuts we're just a bunch of whining lefties...

 

[Dan U]

Circle are trying to walk away from the contract to run Hitchingbrooke Hospital, blaming funding cuts and A&E demand. Presumably they'll get a sympathetic hearing from government and right-wing press, whereas when the public sector warn about the impact of funding cuts we're just a bunch of whining lefties...

Was about to make exactly this point.

What the free market types will ignore is that when the private sector operator has faced exactly the same conditions as every other hospital in England it is trying to do a bunk.

What if we had 30 hospitals run by circle today. We would have a crisis.

Fuck them. Fuck the whole idea. See you later Circle

 

[Sprocket.]

The increase in the elderly population and patients surviving illnesses that were fatal only a couple of decades ago are testament to the success of the NHS and the supporting social care in the community.
Sadly the route to sell offs, privatisation and the loss of community social care for the elderly and infirm will quickly see the return of pre-1940s levels of care, concern and compassion for our vulnerable.
All parties are to blame and we should be more concerned at fighting them every step of the way.
Far too much ground has already been lost.
Far too many people do not care.