Are we really going to sit by while they destroy the NHS?

[butchersapron]

what got me with Royal Mail was the deliberate underselling to their mates who then cleaned up when the share prices shot up. Just brazen.

You'd have loved the 80s. Sid did.

 

[DotCommunist]

and they can claim incompetence- to a level I'd call malfeasance- but we know they had finance industry advice that the company was worth more than they were flogging it for.

 

[two sheds]

The woman shown on that you tube video screen is a star (as is Allyson Pollock), it was her who said

The government is still pursing PFI either because their friends make a lot of money out of it, or because they’re ideologically committed to this, or because they’re stupid quite frankly.

 

[DotCommunist]

You'd have loved the 80s. Sid did.

I do hope thats not a pistols refernce

 

[butchersapron]

I do hope thats not a pistols refernce

Tell Sid

 

[snadge]

I do hope thats not a pistols refernce

The BT/BG/CEGB selloff, when most of our utilities were sold.

 

[agricola]

the problem is that the question over the ownership of the NHS is painted as a choice between the current bloated decaying corpse which encourtages mediocrity ( and is full of 'unredundables' plus of course the unison full time officers per trust who are being paid by trusts to not do the job they were employed to do ) and the obese waddling corporate monster that is the US health industry

There is some truth in this - though of course the threat of the US Health Industry is such that it makes sense to defend the NHS first, then appropriately reform it.

 

[agricola]

The woman shown on that you tube video screen is a star (as is Allyson Pollock), it was her who said

A little from column A, a little from column B. No-one is ideologically committed to PFI, though

 

[Blagsta]

I dunno, but quite easily I'd have thought. Same for all emergency services as well.

Maybe I'm being naive, but nurses are supposed to work to the best available evidence

 

[free spirit]

the majority of the public don't care who owns providers, there are three things they want from the NHS; ( as is seen by the number of people who don't know that the vast majority of patient interactions in the NHS since 1948 have been undertaken by Private providers - GPs)

You're missing a key major difference between the 2 though.

GP and Dentists practices were traditionally owned and run as partnerships by the senior qualified GP's and Dentists who were working within those practices, so virtually a workers co-operative type model (although only the senior's would be partners).

They were not multinational companies who's board is made up almost exclusively of economics, PPE and similar graduates, or sales types, with barely a medical background between them, and who's only guiding principle is to squeeze as much profit as they can from their public sector contracts.

If you genuinely can't see the differences between the 2 models, then you obviously must have been badly infected by those right wing sites you've been spending time on.

 

[Blagsta]

I do hope thats not a pistols refernce

 

[Pickman's model]

I do hope thats not a pistols refernce

sid little

 

[free spirit]

There's a pretty damning article in this weeks Private Eye on this subject btw.

Apparently when the privatisation of the NHS started the government promised that all private providers would be properly vetted, but according to their investigation, there is no national organisation vetting these companies, no list of approved companies, no list of banned companies, no central register of companies that have fucked up and been kicked off previous NHS or other public sector contracts, nothing at all.

So the vetting is being left to individual NHS trusts, and GP commissioning groups, each of which could easily be financially crippled by any multinational they tried to exclude from the bidding process who took them to court for it, so effectively the big corporations have been given full license to bully their way into theses contracts, an there's no organisation that has the financial clout to actually hold them to account properly once they have those contracts.

 

[nino_savatte]

Here's the current government's idea of vetting.

Hunt: What school did you go to?
Rentier cunt: Charterhouse
Hunt: Same as me. You've got the contract.

 

[two sheds]

No-one is ideologically committed to PFI, though

oo I dunno - if the ideology is "to appear to be keeping finances under control", in this case by keeping costs off the balance sheet. And many are in favour of private rather than public finance on principle - that sounds ideological to me.

 

[zippyRN]

I've never understood how you can be a nurse and right wing. All the evidence points to social understanding of health, not an individualist one.

Define 'right wing ' ... the problem most health professionals who have right of centre views have is the way in which they are characterised by the leftist Trade Union types as being some some of ' capitalist running dog lackey ' for big business ... it is possible to have a social conscience beyond just writing cheques to the charity du jour when it is good PR and still have a belief in a none statist none authoritarian system without becoming a rampant libertarian or Freewibbler

Are People like Cadbury, Lever and Salt 'un-understandable', they understood the close links between health and welfare and the ability of their workforce to deliver what they wanted ( a solid days work ), you can argue the actions of them and other entrepreneurs with a philanthropic and social conscience was patriarchal and interventional/ authoritarian ( especially when Methodist religious doctrine comes into play ) .

and without sounding like Blair there is a 'third way' but it;s the war between the ' the left' ( the trades unions and the trots) and the 'right' ( the 'nationalist'/ patriots , the 'religious right' and the libertarians )


if BR was run down prior to privatisation explain the class 15x DMUs , the class 91 +mk 4 for the east coast electrification etc etc as well as the EMUs in the Network South east area in the 1980s - explain network South east ( ok that was also preparatrion for privatisation ) also the frieght railway has had far less interventional Statist fiddling and is doing well - so well that NR is investing in upgrading routes which were previously considered marginal and kept open in part becasue of 'social railway' stuff as well as freioght flows to deal with increased frieght volumes and to take frieght off the Major 'main lines' to allow more paths for passenger services ...

 

[nino_savatte]

Jesus H Christ!

 

[Blagsta]

There's a third position is there? Where have I heard that before.

 

[zippyRN]

I've encountered him on other message boards. I think he's genuine.

or some of my postings on clinical topics, which would mean a huge list of co-morbidities , intergalactic google-fu or the occam's razor answer - that in fact i am a Nurse ...

 

[zippyRN]

There's a third position is there? Where have I heard that before.

a phrase now rendered unusable by it's appropriation by Blair for his bizarre mixture of Statist authoritarianism, bread and circuses and crony capitalism ....

 

[DotCommunist]

There's a third position is there? Where have I heard that before.

beyond left and right

 

[nino_savatte]

a phrase now rendered unusable by it's appropriation by Blair for his bizarre mixture of Statist authoritarianism, bread and circuses and crony capitalism ....

No, that was called the Third Way. You know perfectly well what is meant by the term 'Third Position'.

 

[zippyRN]

Maybe I'm being naive, but nurses are supposed to work to the best available evidence

and that best available evidence is 13 years of failure 1997- 2010 and it's legacy.

4 hour A+E target - no real evidence base to choose 4 hours for the door to door time - the 1980s style 4+ hour waits to be seen couldn't continue,

Ambulance ORCON response standards - no clinical evidence

18 weeks elective treatment standard - again a figure pulled out of the air

'2 week rule' ropey evidence - but arguably the concept is sound

re-writes of GMS and GDP contracts and the cockups they have created ... (

The problem is that the populous don;t believe the truth of what has gone on in the NHS becasue they struggle to detect the truth among all the shroud waving from Unison et al ( whose primary aim in all this isto maintain their position as one of the largest unions and able to threaten to bring the country to it's knees when they don;t get what they want ) and the green inkers who refuse to accept Occam's razor is a valid premise and/or aren't taking their meds ( ref conspiracies against them etc )

 

[Blagsta]

a phrase now rendered unusable by it's appropriation by Blair for his bizarre mixture of Statist authoritarianism, bread and circuses and crony capitalism ....

But it was usable before was it?

 

[zippyRN]

No, that was called the Third Way. You know perfectly well what is meant by the term 'Third Position'.

as in the bizarre mixture of 'patriots' , 'anarchists as long as i'm in charge of the anarchy' and various other revolutionary fruitloops and crusties who don;t want to be identified with Marx or Trotsky ...

 

[nino_savatte]

as in the bizarre mixture of 'patriots' , 'anarchists as long as i'm in charge of the anarchy' and various other revolutionary fruitloops and crusties who don;t want to be identified with Marx or Trotsky ...

You're not making any sense. Did you scoop up a handful of words, put them into a pestle and mortar and smear them paste-like into your reply?

 

[Pickman's model]

as in the bizarre mixture of 'patriots' , 'anarchists as long as i'm in charge of the anarchy' and various other revolutionary fruitloops and crusties who don;t want to be identified with Marx or Trotsky ...

how many anarchists do you think were in the national front when griffin was in charge of it? genuine question

 

[Blagsta]

as in the bizarre mixture of 'patriots' , 'anarchists as long as i'm in charge of the anarchy' and various other revolutionary fruitloops and crusties who don;t want to be identified with Marx or Trotsky ...

Wtf are you on about?

 

[Blagsta]

and that best available evidence is 13 years of failure 1997- 2010 and it's legacy.

4 hour A+E target - no real evidence base to choose 4 hours for the door to door time - the 1980s style 4+ hour waits to be seen couldn't continue,

Ambulance ORCON response standards - no clinical evidence

18 weeks elective treatment standard - again a figure pulled out of the air

'2 week rule' ropey evidence - but arguably the concept is sound

re-writes of GMS and GDP contracts and the cockups they have created ... (

The problem is that the populous don;t believe the truth of what has gone on in the NHS becasue they struggle to detect the truth among all the shroud waving from Unison et al ( whose primary aim in all this isto maintain their position as one of the largest unions and able to threaten to bring the country to it's knees when they don;t get what they want ) and the green inkers who refuse to accept Occam's razor is a valid premise and/or aren't taking their meds ( ref conspiracies against them etc )

Wtf is this babble?

 

[agricola]

oo I dunno - if the ideology is "to appear to be keeping finances under control", in this case by keeping costs off the balance sheet. And many are in favour of private rather than public finance on principle - that sounds ideological to me.

Thats what I mean though; if one is ideologically committed to keeping finances under control then you wouldnt use PFI because (a) it is almost always more expensive than either government expenditure or (especially in the current climate) government borrowing, and (b) it doesnt keep costs off the balance sheet in any real way. If anyone is ideologically committed to PFI despite all of that, it leads one inevitably back to them preferring it "because they are stupid, quite frankly".