Are we really going to sit by while they destroy the NHS?

[zippyRN]

You said capex. Bullshitters often use ideological terms as if they are just neutral technical terms. They do this to hide their fanaticism and to make themselves sound like engineers.

the fact is some on the left have a horrid habit of comparing the CAPital EXpenditure on the buildings (i.e. what it costs to build it) in PFIs with the total cost of the contract including the 'mortgage' , maintainance and other FM services.

 

[butchersapron]

the fact is some on the left have a horrid habit of comparing the CAPital EXpenditure on the buildings (i.e. what it costs to build it) in PFIs with the total cost of the contract including the 'mortgage' , maintainance and other FM services.

I know what capex means you frothing loon - i was talking about the deliberate use of it as a term in order to buff credentials rather than saying capital expenditure. And if you think i'm going to waste my time debating PFI with a far-right caricature like you, well, i'm not.

 

[nino_savatte]

Especially as Equality of opportunity is about pulling the ladder up to the height that the Tractor Production commissars have been told to set it at , rather than equity of opportunity which means the ladder gets lowered as well as pulled up ... but as we know from the 13 glorious years of the Dear Leader and the Great Leader a focus on 'education, education, education ' began with the dismantling of two schemes which encouraged innovation and development as well as providing wider access in favour of their own brand of statist authoritarian cronyism.

Impenetrable.

 

[zippyRN]

I know what capex means you frothing loon - i was talking about the deliberate use of it as a term in order to buff credentials rather than saying capital expenditure. And if you think i'm going to waste my time debating PFI with a far-right caricature like you, well, i'm not.

'far right '

that really has made me laugh, a change from being called a pinko liberal commie handwringer on other sites I frequent - places where the tea party look like a bunch of moderates. The 'powerfully built' 'company directors' on one site in particular really embody Asimov's opinion of Libertarians

that really does sum up part of the problem with Urban and with the 'right on ' radical left in general their grossly distorted sense of reality ...

 

[butchersapron]

'far right '

that really has made me laugh, a change from being called a pinko liberal commie handwringer on other sites I frequent - places where the tea party look like a bunch of moderates. The 'powerfully built' 'company directors' on one site in particular really embody Asimov's opinion of Libertarians

that really does sum up part of the problem with Urban and with the 'right on ' radical left in general their grossly distorted sense of reality ...

Read you posts back - it's like a private schoolboy parody.

I must be doing something right if everyone thinks i'm a cunt. Logic there zippy, logic.

 

[treelover]

in the best tradition of any organisation where ( in the run up to christmas) things have got to be done the turkeys are waving pictures of geese ...

The labour party and the Left (in general)'s propaganda machines continually confuse the services the NHS provide and the clause 4 esque structural mismanagment of the providers in a hope that their union paymasters will be sated .

The simple fact remains if you privatised the NHS providers, let real managers ( not the institutuonalised fast track grad scheme types or failed private sector managers who move to the culture of mediocrity created by Blair-Brown) strip out the layers of unnecessary middle management introduced under Blair - Brown and superfluous legacy roles including full time Uni(s)on Shop Stewards ... but retained the commitment to free at the point of need the service would not get worse and every likelihood would get better

it;s telling that the only NHS trust Board where clinicians outnumber lay managers is Hinchingbrooke, while most other trusts even if you put the professionally qualified support services Managers working 'in role' into a third group the numbers of lay managers still outweigh them sometimes 5 to one - espcially in those trusts who have the minimum of two Health Professional directors - things you can do in production or logistics don;t work when the 'product' is a human being who is injured or unwell.

Luckily, you are in a very very tiny minority who want to see the NHS privatised, the public will in the U.K is that the NHS remains a state run entity free at the point of delivery/use.

 

[zippyRN]

being told i resmember a schoolboy parody by someone on Urban ... oh the huge manatee !

 

[Blagsta]

Especially as Equality of opportunity is about pulling the ladder up to the height that the Tractor Production commissars have been told to set it at , rather than equity of opportunity which means the ladder gets lowered as well as pulled up ... but as we know from the 13 glorious years of the Dear Leader and the Great Leader a focus on 'education, education, education ' began with the dismantling of two schemes which encouraged innovation and development as well as providing wider access in favour of their own brand of statist authoritarian cronyism.

This wouldn't be out of place on The Telegraph comments section.

 

[butchersapron]

being told i resmember a schoolboy parody by someone on Urban ... oh the huge manatee !

No one said it mattered. Clearly it doesn't or you wouldn't carry on being such an anti-social loon. How's your private army going Harry?

 

[butchersapron]

This wouldn't be out of place on The Telegraph comments section.

It wouldn't be out of place in Spearhead.

 

[zippyRN]

Luckily, you are in a very very tiny minority who want to see the NHS privatised, the public will in the U.K is that the NHS remains a state run entity free at the point of delivery/use.

the majority of the public don't care who owns providers, there are three things they want from the NHS; ( as is seen by the number of people who don't know that the vast majority of patient interactions in the NHS since 1948 have been undertaken by Private providers - GPs)

1. timely access to routine services
2. reassurance that the service is there and free at the point of need should they have the need for expensive treatment following a life changing accident or diagnosis with a life or limb threatening illness
3. evidence that the service is being managed prudently

The Left concentrates on baseless fears over 2 i.e. 'shroud waving' while 'moving the conversation on ' (as I believe is the ideologically approved phraseology from abour HQ ) about points 1 and 3 after the failures of the Blair - Brown regime ( record investment - in pointless lay managers - while removing clinical posts and downgrading others becasue AfC was perverted to fit the aims of the lay management ) - this of course fits in with the Uni(s)on agenda of trying to maintain their undemocratic right to hold the Country to ransom when they don't get what they want ... ( along with conveniently forgetting that they had been locked into a 9 % over 3 years deal before Brown's proud claim to have 'abolished boom and bust' came unstuck )

 

[two sheds]

This is balls. They're comparing the capex for building it with the total PFI repayments which includes 30+ years of service charges for crappy meals and washing shit stained sheets, etc.

Sorry if that quote turned out misleading. Immediately after that “3 billion” quote, Allyson Pollock said “For every PFI hospital that’s open and running you could have had three hospitals opening and running for the same price and that includes the staffing as well. “ which covers your point. (And perhaps if we weren't tied into that deal they might not be crappy meals.)

And we are still tied into a £3 billion pound contract at the end of which we still don’t own the building. So the £170 million cost of the building should (I'd have thought) really be set against the services they’re providing. And, from a Select Committee report:

1.8 Distortions in decision-making

The Coventry Walsgrave hospital PFI is one an example of how PFI can distort decision-making. This project started out as a £30 million refurbishment, yet ended up as a £174 million new build. This had little to do with the health needs of the area and was instead due to the need to make the project achievable on the basis of private finance. (Pollock, Price and Shaoul.) http://www.publications.parliament.uk/pa/ld200910/ldselect/ldeconaf/63/09111003.htm

So two hospitals at Coventry were apparently to have been renovated for £30 million, but were demolished and one rebuilt for £410 million.

 

[butchersapron]

the majority of the public don't care who owns providers, there are three things they want from the NHS;

1. timely access to routine services
2. reassurance that the service is there and free at the point of need should they have the need for expensive treatment following a life changing accident or diagnosis with a life or threatening illness
3. evidence that the service is being managed prudently

And a nationalised NHS. As poll after poll after poll for decade after decade after decade shows quite clearly and with no possibility of questioning.

Out of touch middle manager waiting for the balloon to go up.

 

[nino_savatte]

the majority of the public don't care who owns providers

Really? Show me some evidence.

 

[zippyRN]

And a nationalised NHS. As poll after poll after poll for decade after decade after decade shows qiote clearly and with no possibility of questioning.

Out of touch middle manager waiting for the balloon to go up.

In touch frontline clinician , who can see through the myths perpetuated by the undemocratic wannabes who can't get the power they crave in actual politics because they, deep down, know they are unelectable outside their fan club.

the problem is that the question over the ownership of the NHS is painted as a choice between the current bloated decaying corpse which encourtages mediocrity ( and is full of 'unredundables' plus of course the unison full time officers per trust who are being paid by trusts to not do the job they were employed to do ) and the obese waddling corporate monster that is the US health industry

 

[nino_savatte]

La preuve s'il vous plaît.

 

[zippyRN]

Really? Show me some evidence.

other than most people don't realise their GP is 'private' ( until they want something which isn't in the GMS contract) and until the botched reform by Blair and Brown of the GDP contract that their dentist was also a private business

 

[nino_savatte]

other than most people don't realise their GP is 'private' ( until they want something which isn't in the GMS contract) and until the botched reform by Blair and Brown of the GDP contract that their dentist was also a private business

That isn't evidence. I'd like you to provide some evidence for your claim that "the majority of the public don't care who owns providers". If you're so sure this is the case, it shouldn't be too difficult for you to find some proof. Hmmm?

 

[butchersapron]

In touch frontline clinician , who can see through the myths perpetuated by the undemocratic wannabes who can't get the power they crave in actual politics because they, deep down, know they are unelectable outside their fan club.

the problem is that the question over the ownership of the NHS is painted as a choice between the current bloated decaying corpse which encourtages mediocrity ( and is full of 'unredundables' plus of course the unison full time officers per trust who are being paid by trusts to not do the job they were employed to do ) and the obese waddling corporate monster that is the US health industry

Yeah, it is you zippy pinhead isn't it? I knew it.

 

[treelover]

Anyone who describes the Labour Party as ' the left' has no right to be taken seriously, game over...

 

[Blagsta]

I've never understood how you can be a nurse and right wing. All the evidence points to social understanding of health, not an individualist one.

 

[Bernie Gunther]

Do we want to assume that zippy isn't just bullshitting about being a nurse to give their right-wing claptrap a veneer of bogus credibility ... ?

I'm feeling a bit sceptical on that point myself.

What would count as credible evidence?

 

[two sheds]

the ownership of the NHS is painted as a choice between the current bloated decaying corpse which encourtages mediocrity ( and is full of 'unredundables' plus of course the unison full time officers per trust who are being paid by trusts to not do the job they were employed to do )

Are we talking about the same health service here? From that transcript (my bold): "The Commonwealth fund for example – a non partisan US research organisation – found the NHS to be the best in the developed world and the US – the model to which our politicians now aspire – the worst."

and the obese waddling corporate monster that is the US health industry

well yes but that is the model the government has adopted and the one we're moving towards - that's the only "choice" that's on offer.

 

[Blagsta]

Do we want to assume that zippy isn't just bullshitting about being a nurse to give their right-wing claptrap a veneer of bogus credibility ... ?

I'm feeling a bit sceptical on that point myself.

What would count as credible evidence?

I've encountered him on other message boards. I think he's genuine.

 

[DotCommunist]

people don't really care who runs services?

thats some blind belief right there. How come every sell off is widely decried? how come the current government promised not to fuck about with the NHS? How come every election time the NHS is a political football with each stripe of neoliberal promising on thier honour not to fuck with it?

 

[Bernie Gunther]

I've encountered him on other message boards. I think he's genuine.

Fair enough.

 

[_angel_]

I've never understood how you can be a nurse and right wing. All the evidence points to social understanding of health, not an individualist one.

I dunno, but quite easily I'd have thought. Same for all emergency services as well.

 

[two sheds]

There's all sorts of good quotes in that film. While we're on the subject of privatization (for those who didn't read all of it):

British Rail was run down for some years systematically before the privatisation, and in fact that is a standard privatisation strategy – it makes it easier. The expert on this is Oliver Letwin MP and he has written a nice book called ‘Privatising the World’ in 1988, and in that he sets out a number of important tactics for governments who are trying to privatise public services against the wishes of their population. And among them ... is to restrict the budget so that public service gets worse and worse and worse and then privatisation can be represented as a step up ... So it’s a deliberate policy.

 

[butchersapron]

There's all sorts of good quotes in that film. While we're on the subject of privatization (for those who didn't read all of it):

See royal mail for a good example too.

 

[DotCommunist]

what got me with Royal Mail was the deliberate underselling to their mates who then cleaned up when the share prices shot up. Just brazen.